Sunday, May 17, 2015

Is Muddenahalli chosen communicator belief similar to Kurnool Bala Sai Baba belief?

Last updated on 18th May 2015

Some comment exchanges from facebook post: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206829857243798&set=a.1627496606106.2082337.1197289954

[Note I have presumed brother Pardha Saradhi Uppala would not mind me sharing his comments on my post as the intention is noble and there is no financial profit motive involved whatsoever. This blog is not monetized.]

Pardha Saradhi Uppala wrote (slightly edited to fix a grammar error):
"Truth can never be contained. By any organization. Nor any representative", but only one single person in the entire universe can see and hear God? If tomorrow another person comes and announces that he saw a dream where Swami told him that He changed His plans again, shifted His operational base to another town, and starts building even more free hospitals and schools at a much faster rate, starts conducting "Swami's Darshan" saying it is "Subtler Form" (We cannot contain Swami - He can do anything right?) and starts giving interviews and rings, would that be reason enough for us to believe that it is a genuine change of plans of Swami again? How many times can this act repeat and by how many people without losing its genuineness?

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Pardha Saradhi Uppala wrote:
If we can negate everything that physical Swami said about mediums and His future plans, and believe Swami is residing in Muddenahalli in a subtle Form communicating through one person, because Swami can always change His plans at His Will, it should also be possible that He can negate the words He is now supposedly saying through Muddenahalli Madhusudhan, and change to another town and pick another medium right? So, if tomorrow someone comes up and says He came to His dream and starts building hospitals, neither Puttaparthi nor Muddenahalli nor anyone else on earth should question them as long as they do service activities. They can conduct "Swami's Darshans and interviews" parallelly as Swami can have any number of forms simultaneously right?

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Pardha Saradhi Uppala wrote:
So, if 10 of the people whom you see now at Muddenahalli, start going to another 10 different mediums at 10 different places, saying they experience "unnamed, unseen and a bliss known to their spiritual hearts alone", and start obtaining "Discourses, Darshans, Interviews and Rings" at the 10 places, that should be perfectly fine isn't it? Because we cannot explain or interpret Swami, He can be present at 10 different places at the same time? May be 100 or 1000 Darshans and interviews through 1000 communicators, all claiming Swami's operational base is now in their edifice. All people will vouch for the bliss part. That should be fine. BTW, no Christian who declares Jesus alone is God and the rest are demons, no Muslim who kills in the name of Allah, will ever say, his God is awful and he does not experience any bliss in his heart.

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Pardha Saradhi Uppala wrote:
If they say Swami is giving Darshans in Subtle form so that devotees can rise up to formlessness of God, why give rings and attach them to things? And if giving rings on behalf of Swami is fine, Madhu brother can also give Padanamaskars and Padapujas on behalf of Him right? Will anyone accept a physical communicator between one's husband or wife or mother and oneself? How then can one dare accept communicator between oneself and God? If one may disregard Swami's teaching about mediums saying it is incorrect to interpret His teaching in our own way, one may use the same logic to disregard everything else He taught as well, saying it is heartfelt, inner prompting, inexplicable, beyond logic etc. etc.

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Ravi S. Iyer wrote:
Very well said brother Pardha Saradhi Uppala. What really bothers me is the MDH disinformation campaign style words to justify their actions which go against physical form Swami's instructions & teachings. They use lines like (physical form) Swami has said expect the unexpected, or words to that effect, to justify anything and everything!

MDH believers may feel offended but I am now convinced that MDH following is similar to followings of Kurnool Bala Sai Baba, http://www.sribalasai.com/, and Nepali Sai Baba, https://www.facebook.com/pages/Shree-Sanjay-Sai-Sewa-OrganisationNepal/182969168461045, (two gentlemen who even imitate the physical look and attire of Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba). Sure, the broad teachings of MDH "chosen communicator" is the same as physical form Swami. But I think the same applies to Kurnool Bala Sai Baba (I have seen some videos of his) and perhaps Nepali Sai Baba as well.

I do not have anything against the service activities of the followings of Kurnool Bala Sai Baba and Nepali Sai Baba, and similarly I do not have anything against the service activities of the following of Muddenahalli "chosen communicator". But I certainly do wonder whether the spiritual guidance that these persons provide can come anywhere close to that of our beloved Lord, Shiva-Shakti Swarupa, Kali Yuga Avatar, (physical form) Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba.

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Pardha Saradhi Uppala wrote:
[Name-snipped], the Bala Sai Baba imitated Swami's dress and words and all actions of Swami - taking out Shiva Lingams, giving rings, Vibhuti etc. Except for the dress part, is it not exactly what Madhu is doing? Is he not "imitiating" Swami's voice and diction? How can you it is totally different?

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Ravi S. Iyer wrote:
[Name-snippped] madam: Sorry that the pic of Bala Sai Baba offended you. Removed it. BTW the pic got automatically picked up by Facebook as preview from the Bala Sai Baba Internet link in my comment, and was not inserted deliberately by me. I had the option of removing the preview which I did now as you have taken offense.

However, what I wrote is that MDH following is similar to followings of Bala Sai Baba and Nepali Sai Baba. I did not say that it is the same. Let me try to substantiate why I say that MDH following is similar to theirs (but not the same):

1) Well known teachings of (physical form) Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba are repeated through the leaders/"chosen communicator" of these followings.

2) All of them have organizations (and associated trusts, I am sure) which do service activities as per these teachings.

3) The leaders/"chosen communicator" try, while in public darshans and 'discourses', to stick to the style of discourse delivery of Bhagavan. [I think I have seen a few Nepali Sai Baba videos but I don't recall them clearly so I could be a little wrong in the case of Nepali Sai Baba. But Bala Sai Baba of Kurnool does an outstanding job of speaking in the very same style of Puttaparthi Sai Baba. I mean, Bala Sai Baba starting his discourse with the word, Premaswarupulara (embodiments of love), seemed to me to be as full of love as when Puttaparthi Sai Baba would say the same word. REALLY! It is no wonder to me that Bala Sai Baba does have some significant following in his region.]

4) Bala Sai Baba also does Lingdobhavam on Shivarathri. About "chosen communicator" there are conflicting reports. Some say that he just passes on materialized rings, necklaces etc. which he says are placed by Bhagavan in his pocket (which is what you said in one comment of yours). Some say NO, he actually materializes it in private interviews. Some say he acknowledges that the rings, necklaces etc. are bought from elsewhere (like Bangalore) and he only gives those non-materialized rings, necklaces, etc. to persons that Swami directs him to. So this is not a well defined similarity. But, if one goes by belief of many devotees of "chosen communicator" then they do believe that he materializes rings, necklaces etc. even though they may add that this power is given to him by Swami.

What are the differences?
1) "Chosen communicator" does not dress like Swami and claims to be only a communicator of Swami, who is visible to him in a subtle body/light body. Further this subtle body/light body walks giving darshan via people seeing the "chosen communicator" closely following him and/or by his side, and then takes a seat in a special chair/throne with the "chosen communicator" sitting humbly by his side.

I can't honestly think of any other important difference. Maybe others can add more differences.

And BTW I think lots of good work are being done by Bala Sai Baba and Nepali Sai Baba, for which I appreciate them. The Nepali Sai Baba facebook page link that I provided in an earlier comment gives many examples of laudable service done by his following in the recent Nepal earthquake(s).

Sorry if this free and frank discussion upsets you [name-snipped]. But I think the truth must be revealed in this matter for the benefit of the Sathya Sai movement worldwide. And the truth can be revealed only by asking these searching and uncomfortable questions. If "chosen communicator" is so sure of himself he can himself start responding to these on Facebook. I am told he was on Facebook a few years ago (maybe just a year or two ago). He is just a student from the Sai university where I was a teacher (but I did not teach him). I REFUSE to BELIEVE that he is so extraordinarily PURE a person that Swami chose to communicate to all Sathya Sai devotees worldwide through him and him alone. SORRY, but I have seen a lot more PURER souls in the Sathya Sai student community as well as devotee community overall.

[And, BTW I don't claim to be a pure person. I do have my fair share of human flaws. But then I don't claim to be a chosen communicator of Swami :-).]

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Ravi S. Iyer wrote:
Sister [name-snipped]: A few minutes ago I read your earlier comment about St. Theresa of Avila of Germany who, as you wrote, saw visions and referred to it as the great Light, and was a famous mystic. You also wrote, "Secondly, many have seen Swami's Light form during his physical avatarhood in many places in the world, including Bosnia during war, London an all over the globe. It's nothing new."

Now I do not deny such matters and in fact, believe that most of the well researched and well documented ones are true. In other words, I certainly believe that divine visions to various people are certainly possible. I will go further and say that I think it is possible that brother M, the "chosen communicator", may have seen visions of Swami. I know a fair number of people who claim to have such visions of Swami and other divine figures, and I will not say that they are saying something FALSE.

HOWEVER, when it comes to (physical form) Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba, he categorically told & instructed his devotees that He will not pass His instructions to us via another person through a dream or vision. CATEGORICALLY and on mulitple occasions!

Note that even while Bhagavan was in physical form, in the Sai university Prasanthi Nilayam campus, where I was serving as a teacher, there was one gentleman who claimed that Swami was giving instructions to him, meant for others, in dreams. We politely ignored these dream instructions of his, meant for any third parties. NOTE Swami dream-instruction for that particular individual who got the dream is a different matter, altogether.

I see "chosen communicator" conveying such instructions of supposed subtle body of Swami to others as similar to the gentleman I mentioned above who used to talk about such Swami dream instructions for others, while Swami was in physical form itself!

So, for the purpose of discussion, let us presume that brother M, the "chosen communicator" really is seeing some visions and getting communications from some form which he thinks is Swami's subtle form. NOW what should Sathya Sai devotees do? Should they believe in instructions of "chosen communicator" or not? Well, in my considered opinion, Sathya Sai devotees (including me) should see Swami's instructions as given in public discourses on many occasions on these matters. As Swami has clearly said that He will never use a third-party to convey instructions to us, and that He can surely find a way to communicate to sincere and earnest devotees DIRECTLY, for people like me, we are convinced that the wise thing to do is to follow Swami's instructions and so ignore third-party instructions from people like the "chosen communicator".

Note that I am not saying that "chosen communicator" is lying. I am only saying that what he thinks is subtle body of Swami interacting with him and giving instructions for others and the Sathya Sai mission, is a FALSE BELIEF as phyiscal form Sathya Sai Baba has HIMSELF told us on many occasions to NOT follow such people.

All the above words of mine do not mean that St. Theresa of Avila was false, or that so many people who have got visions of the divine, including instructions for others, are false and wrong. NO. I don't know enough about them to comment. But about Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba of Puttaparthi, what I have said above holds good, in my considered opinion.

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Pardha Saradhi Uppala wrote:
[name-snipped], does or does not Mr. Madhusudhan Naidu imitate Baba's Voice, diction and Baba's way of talking to devotees (the quips, the witty phrases and the all-knowing look and talk - of course totally mixed up with "No, I am still just an instrument")? He does, this is the truth. I saw it. I have no need to lie about him - I do not gain anything. No Divine personality or a devotee has ever imitated any other Divine Form except impostors. Krishna did not imitate Rama, Sathya Sai did not imitiate Shirdi Sai. No devotees ever imitated the voice and style of their God. They remained in their own humble way of talking and walking. When someone tries to imitate the inimitable voice of the Lord, it takes away all the goodness that may otherwise be apparent in their words. If Madhusudhan is only an instrument, why should he mimic Baba? If you say Baba is speaking through him, Baba has categorically said he will never enter into anyone's body. You may tell me a 1000 reasons without bothering a bit ignoring Baba's clear teachings in this context. Even when people take Swami's photographs photoshopped in the Form of Rama or Krishna to Him, He dismissed them as falsities. Haven't you heard Him saying, "Imitation is human and creation is Divine?" You may call me shameful but I know I am speaking truth from the authenticity of my experience that is enough for me, sister. If you want to call mine logic, and yours an inner experience, please do.

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[The background to the comment below is that there were some heated exchanges between the post author and sister [name-snipped].]

Ravi S. Iyer wrote:
Oh Lord! Sister [name-snipped] seems have to got really upset as I don't see her comments any more including the long comment that I very much wanted to read now. So, in all probability, she must have deleted all her comments from this post. Anyway, I benefited from knowing [name-snipped]'s views on this matter, even if I don't agree with some of her views, and I thank her for taking the time to engage with me & brother Pardha on it. Wish her all the best for her spiritual journey to Godhood. Hope somebody from the MDH belief following passes on this message to [name-snipped]. Jai Sairam!
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Pardha Saradhi Uppala wrote (slightly edited to fix typos):
I would have thought about believing in brother M, if he actually claimed he is re-incarnation of Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba, and maintains his natural walk and talk, (direct English and not his currently "practised" Telugu - which is a hard try to deviate from his natural accent) and conducts his own Darshans, interviews in his own style, than replicating everything same to same. Like Bhagavan said, imitation is human, creation is Divine. If one contemplates on this one single sentence of Bhagavan itself, with a pure heart, one would know that it is all human drama, and can never be anywhere near Divine. Whatever the service, compassion, foretelling that might be happening.

Swami's MISSION, as He Himself said, is not to build schools and hospitals. If it were, why would He do only 2 hospitals and few institutes in 85 years? He would have built a 1000 or million - He can in all probability. These institutions are only incidental to His real Mission of teaching man his Divine reality. And He said He came in human form so we can relate to him and realise our own Divinity. We learn from Him as we see Him having the same body as us and undergoing the same things as us. What do you learn from imagining someone walking beside brother M whom only brother M can see and talk to? Imagination? Hallucination? Talking to air and hearing from air? Which one of these actions is a natural thing that we humans can emulate like the way physical Swami spoke, ate and sang that we can emulate?

Bhagavan refused to take any action that breaks the natural laws and sat in a wheel chair for years and finally, left the body in its natural course. By doing that, He actually set an example to us that we should not be bothered too, when our body naturally withers and falls down, but boldly live in the awareness of our inner Divinity, like He did. If He had returned in a subtle body, it is totally throwing away everything He ever taught about body and its temporal nature. “Dehamu Paanchabhothukamu. Dehamu koolaka thappadheppudun.” If He returned in subtle form, is He telling us, we can return in subtle form too after death, and continue what we left? No. Once left the body, left.

I will actually show you a discourse (will upload it on youtube and share it) from around 2008, where He clearly said, “ONCE AVATAR LEAVES THE BODY, HE WILL NOT HAVE ANY CONNECTION WHATSOEVER WITH THE THINGS HAPPENED IN HIS EARTHLY CAREER. HE WILL ANSWER DEVOTEES FROM WITHIN THEIR OWN HEARTS AND GIVE THEM THE RESULTS OF THEIR ACTIONS AND PRAYERS FROM THERE”. Expect the upload in a bit.

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Ravi S. Iyer wrote: Terrific message brother Pardha Saradhi Uppala full of wisdom and understanding of the great Sathya Sai Avatar. Congratulations! And thanks for expressing it so well.

Two extracts from your message that I appreciate very, very much:

"And He said He came in human form so we can relate to him and realise our own Divinity. We learn from Him as we see Him having the same body as us and undergoing the same things as us. What do you learn from imagining someone walking beside brother M whom only brother M can see and talk to? Imagination? Hallucination? Talking to air and hearing from air? Which one of these actions is a natural thing that we humans can emulate like the way physical Swami spoke, ate and sang that we can emulate?"
[Ravi: I tend to agree with the above words. But I also recognize that some MDH believer brothers & sisters may feel offended by it. If they do feel offended I offer my apologies. But I think these words have to be said to ensure that at least those who are not committed MDH believers but are considering it, and happen to read these words, will seriously think about the matter before believing in MDH chosen communicator.]

And then the extract from a 2008 discourse which you plan to upload to youtube - I am just waiting for it as I had not come across these words earlier, if I recall correctly. So the words you mentioned from Swami's discourse are: “ONCE AVATAR LEAVES THE BODY, HE WILL NOT HAVE ANY CONNECTION WHATSOEVER WITH THE THINGS (THAT) HAPPENED IN HIS EARTHLY CAREER. HE WILL ANSWER DEVOTEES FROM WITHIN THEIR OWN HEARTS AND GIVE THEM THE RESULTS OF THEIR ACTIONS AND PRAYERS FROM THERE”.

Ravi: My God! If we can really get a proper reference to these words of Swami that becomes a tremendous statement from Swami Himself specifically against any subtle body claims after Mahasamadhi.

Great work brother Pardha in getting closer to the truth about claimed subtle body of Swami in MDH and claimed chosen communicator.

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Pardha Saradhi Uppala wrote:

Ravi S. Iyer Sir. I will upload the Discourse in a bit. But I am not sure if that will bring about any "enlightenment" as such in anyone. There are Discourses in which Swami clearly and strongly denied speaking through mediums. When people can ignore those, what will stop them from ignoring any other words of Swami? Even if Jesus or Mohammed PBUH come down in flesh and blood, and tell Christians and Muslims that God is one, there may probably be only a handful who change. You already heard from brother Satyajit about the senior devotee who was rebuked by the physical Form of Lord Himself, when he brought the topic of a medium boy in His presence.But the senior continued to talk about it even after severe rebuke from Swami in person. How can an audio or video or for that matter anything change people? All the learning must happen the hard way of self experience.

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Ravi S. Iyer responded (slightly edited):
Well brother Pardha Saradhi Uppala, I think our discussions on these matters and the discourse quote that you refer to will help some Sathya Sai devotees who have not made up their minds on this matter, and are reading such social media posts, to come to a more informed decision about whether to believe in MDH chosen communicator & claimed MDH subtle body or not. Given that MDH chosen communicator is increasing the spread of his worldwide visits, including one planned visit to USA in June, I am informed, I think these discussions are doing an important bit of service to the Sathya Sai fraternity worldwide. BTW I have also put up a blog post on these exchanges including some of your comments here: [link to this blog post] (I hope you don't mind me doing that. The intent is to simply make it easier for those searching the Internet for such material to find it.)

About the Satyajit talk, well it was Satyajit sharing his memories. While it certainly has significant value, a VERIFIABLE Swami discourse where he clearly said that the avatar (i.e. He) will not have any connection with things associated with His earthly career after He leaves the body (but will respond to devotees from their hearts), is of IMMENSE value. Most Sathya Sai devotees give HUGE importance to such declarations by Swami.

The MDH belief following has quite artfully dodged the declarations of Swami that He never communicates through mediums, by some disingenuous explanations which has taken in some people. But I don't think they can easily dodge the above declaration of Swami (needs to be confirmed with actual discourse).

However, they may simply ignore it, and ask people to go by their hearts or say that Swami has changed his instructions & declarations after taking subtle form. And so it may not impact many committed MDH belief followers. But, at least, it will be helpful in convincing more unsure people to not believe in MDH chosen communicator and claimed subtle body.

1 comment:

  1. Faith is beyond belief. Any effort either to deride or substantiate it happens in the realm of the mind which is a bundle of beliefs. Belief may masquerade as faith and this when there is this urge to deride or substantiate it.

    ReplyDelete