Tuesday, March 15, 2016

Different types of truth wrt Muddenahalli belief: My part of comment exchange on it

Last updated on 16th March 2016

Given below is my part of a comment exchange on different types of truth with respect to Muddenahalli belief on March 13th & 14th, 2016 (the full comment exchange can be viewed here: https://www.facebook.com/terry.reiskennedy/posts/10209028707293675)

Ravi S. Iyer wrote (slightly edited) in response to a comment by Muddenahalli belief supporter that he has the prerogative to speak the truth (that Muddenahalli so called subtle body and its so called communicator claims are the truth):
--name-snipped-- I think you mean the truth as you perceive it. Or do you think you know, really know, the truth about so called communicator? May I also ask you whether you consider yourself to be self-realized and so KNOW the truth, the Sath, that Bhagavan talked about?

Ravi S. Iyer wrote (slightly edited):
BTW --name-snipped--, my question to you is genuine. And not intended as a trick question. You may be aware that at least one person associated with MDH group considers herself to be self-enlightened. I do not contest her claim but have just noted that it is her claim. In my own case, I guess I have had some spiritual insights but I certainly have NOT had mystical experiences like that of experiencing myself in all, and all in myself, which some mystics claim to have experienced.

Ravi S. Iyer wrote (slightly edited):
Thanks bro. --name-snipped-- for your response. From my perspective, "Muddenahalli false belief" is what I consider/perceive to be the truth (i.e. the statement that belief in Muddenahalli so called subtle body and so called communicator is a false belief, is a truthful statement according to me) based on logical analysis which I have presented earlier. If the logical analysis that I have given is refuted (as there could be flaws in it which I have not spotted yet) then I will surely reconsider my stand.

The term "Muddenahalli false belief" for me is a vyavaharika sathyam. From http://www.advaita-vedanta.in/understanding-advaita:

VyavahArika Satya

VyavahAra means day-to-day affairs. VyavahArika satya means that which is true or appears to be true in day-to-day life. In other words, it is practical reality.

PrAtibhAsika Satya

PrAtibhAsa means illusion or appearence. PrAtibhAsika satya is the truth which is only true in the dream state. This truth is within mind. During sleep, mind creates another world. Dream world is true for dreamer, but when one is awake, this world disappears without leaving any trace.

PAramArthika Satya

ParamArtha means absolute truth or highest truth. PAramArthika satya means that which remains truth in all states at all times. That which is present everywhere, without beginning or end. There is no abhAva or absence of pAramArthika satya. Hence it is called as absolute truth. Shruti says Brahman is absolute truth.

--- end extract from advaita.vedanta.in ---

From Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba's divine discourse on 21st July 1996, http://www.sssbpt.info/ssspeaks/volume29/d960721.pdf:

There are three aspects of this Divinity: paramarthika, vyavaharika, and pratibhasika (absolutely real, empirical and illusory). These three are not different from each other. The same Divinity is present in all three. There can be no waves without water, and there can be no froth without waves. The waves are the basis of froth, and water is the basis of waves. Water is the same in all the three — ocean, waves and froth. Similarly, the same Divinity is present in paramarthika, vyavaharika, and pratibhasika.

One should make spirituality the basis of all worldly activities. But, unfortunately, people today consider paramarthika and vyavaharika (absolutely real and empirical) as separate from each other. People say there is no relationship between spirituality and worldly life. This is a great mistake. It is not possible for the world to exist without the foundation of spirituality. In fact, spirituality is inherent in worldliness. Therefore, the Vedas demonstrated the truth that the same Divinity is present in paramarthika, vyavaharika, and pratibhasika.

--- end extract from Bhagavan discourse ---

Ravi: You wrote, 'Again and again I say “It is 100% Swami, the same Lord who promised to continue till his 96th year.” This is my truth as I perceive it.' [This (100% Swami ...) is with reference to so called subtle Swami and its so called communicator of Muddenahalli.]

Ravi: I do not know whether one should classify your perceived truth as vyavaharika satyam or pratibhasika satyam. I think your perceived truth is based more on your experiences at the heart/emotional level rather than logical analysis (as you have not been able to refute my logical analysis showing strong contradictions between what Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba said, and what Madhusudhan Rao Naidu said (in his claimed role as so-called communicator of Bhagavan)).

You did not answer my question regarding whether you consider yourself to be self-realized and so KNOW the truth. But that's fine - it is your prerogative to not answer the question. But I guess you do not CLAIM to be self-realized/enlightened like another person(s) associated with Muddenahalli group.

I felt it appropriate to add that it seems to me that for a person to be viewed as FULLY enlightened or self-realized (as against somebody having fleeting divine/mystical experiences) that person should KNOW/EXPERIENCE paramarthika satyam. [I have to say seems as I DO NOT CLAIM to be enlightened i.e. I DO NOT have experience of paramarthika sathyam.] Such a FULLY enlightened person, I believe, would experience himself/herself in others and others in himself/herself, and so would have powers of clairvoyance, would experience himself/herself as the changeless truth (Atma), would also be able to see the karmic influences working through people's lives including his/her own life, and know about the previous lives of people etc.

In this context, I think it is important for us to note that Bhagavan taught us (as given in the discourse extract above) that the same Divinity is present in paramarthika, vyavaharika and pratibhasika spheres, and that we should make spirituality the basis of all our worldly (vyavaharika) activities. Thanks. Jai Sairam!

In response to a comment "Sharing what i have understand and read : All three states of Truth - are True as per Bhagawan's Message!.. Then where is the question of False - Belief?",
Ravi S. Iyer responded as follows (slightly edited) on 16th March 2016:

Bro. ---name-snipped---: My understanding is as follows. The pratibhasika sathyam is an illusory sathyam and so not really a sathyam (truth). The vyavaharika sathyam is relatively real and not absolutely real. The prayer Asatho Maa Sath Gamaya is a prayer to go from the pratibhasika and vyavaharika sathyams which are actually Asath from a higher spiritual point of view, to absolutely real, the paramarthika sathyam (Sath).

In the context of belief about Muddenahalli so called subtle body and its so called communicator, my view is that as there are many contradictions between that belief and what (physical form) Sathya Sai spoke & did, we cannot classify it as vyavaharika sathyam (practical reality), and will have to classify it as pratibhasika sathyam (illusory reality) and so I think it is fair to refer to it as false belief.

[I thank advaita.vedanta.in and sssbpt.info and have presumed that they will not have any objections to me sharing the above extracts from their website on this post which is freely viewable by all, and does not have any financial profit motive whatsoever.]

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