Is religion when only a consolation, a hindrance to true faith? Issues with reading scripture with an atheist lens
In the context of a quote of Simone Weil given below, I made the comments given after the quote:
"Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith; and in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be an atheist with that part of myself which is not made for God. Among those in whom the supernatural part of themselves has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong.", Simone Weil, in "Faiths of Meditation; Contemplation of the divine" as translated in The Simone Weil Reader (1957) edited by George A. Panichas, p. 417, https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Christian_atheism
Slightly edited comments of mine follow without the comments of others. I have tried to edit the comments to make the flow reasonable without comment responses of others.
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I looked at the above Simone Weil quotation twice, with a break in between, but I am not able to relate to it. The issue of doubt coming into the spiritual path, whether it be the devotional path or the wisdom path, is a different matter. I think doubt is quite common in spiritual journeys, no matter what the religion/tradition/sect/path. But, atheism, especially when it is taken to mean as a conviction that there is no divine power/no God, is different from doubt. Doubt holds the possibility of the divine being there, but wonders why the divine is not doing something that the doubter expects it to do. .... So that's my humble take on the matter. Maybe I did not understand the context of Simone Weil's words well - anyway, I am afraid I don't have the time now to read up her full document.
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In this context, I would like share that Sathya Sai Baba is reported to have said that atheists too most certainly can achieve self-realization (in this birth itself) and that anyone (including atheists and agnostics, I guess) who gives up body consciousness - for them, self-realization is inevitable, https://ravisiyer.blogspot.com/2014/03/sathya-sai-baba-said-atheists-can-also.html. I think these words are true. My belief is that the ultimate issue is the matter of identification changing from the mind-body complex to the inner changeless awareness/consciousness, which is projecting the whole drama of creation.
About religion when being only a source of consolation being a hindrance to true faith OR a part of oneself having to be atheist: Now, for a deeper discussion of the matter, one will have to get Simone Weil's definition of the terms 'true faith' and 'atheist' and then do some hair-splitting kind of logical analysis. Maybe it is not worth spending time on such hair-splitting.
In our times, the term atheist is typically understood to be somebody who is convinced that there is no divine power (and, typically, that on death of the body everything is over for that person). [However, some, especially some of the top rationalists & scientists who oppose religion, hold the view that atheist should be understood as not theist i.e. not a believer in God. In other words, atheist should not be understood to mean that a person is convinced that there is no God.]
My strong belief is that all is God, even the rational faculty that we possess is a manifestation of God. Exercising the rational faculty within certain spheres of life (like my former profession of software development) does not mean that we are using an atheist part of ourselves. And a deity like Jesus Christ being a source of consolation may actually strengthen that person's faith and take him/her closer to merging with God even though the person may not have a proper logical understanding of the concept of God. It has been my experience in my spiritual journey over the past two decades & more, that deep faith in God is a far more powerful spiritual capability/feature than a powerful logical analysis faculty. When the situation becomes a real test, I have invariably found that the person with deep faith eventually passes the test, even if that person may be seen to have failed from a material perspective. I mean, the person may lose money or even health but he/she still has faith and is able to lead a fairly peaceful and loving life due to that unshaken faith. Whereas the powerful logical analysis faculty person with limited faith can simply lose his/her faith and become a psychological wreck, when he/she is put to a severe test.
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To my mind, part of your response raises a question, "Does consolation alone, in Christ or the Virgin Mary or any other deity/formless divinity of any other religion, have the power to obliterate the Ego?" I believe the answer to be Yes, as somebody who surrenders completely to the will of the Lord (via chosen deity or formless divinity like Allah) and becomes, so to speak, a slave of the Lord, accepting anything and everything that happens to him/her as the Will of the Lord, does obliterate the ego. The path to obliteration of the ego may be different from a wisdom/analytical path but the result is achievement of the same goal.
An atheist lens to interrogate scripture like the gospels is something that I am very uncomfortable with today. As a youngster under the influence of science (I am a Physics graduate by academic training though my work/profession was not related to Physics at all), I used a similar agnostic lens to read Hindu scripture about the Avatars like Rama and Krishna, and tended to agree with a lot of skeptic Indian intellectuals that the miracles reported there are more of poetic imagination of the authors rather than real incidents.
It was much later, a decade plus later, due to certain challenges in life that really shook me up, that I joined communities which had faith in these accounts of Hindu Avatars, and so started reading such Hindu scripture with faith. The experience of reading it with faith was a very different one from the "agnostic lens" reading I had done as a youngster! Later, as I came under the influence of a great contemporary spiritual master, I saw and experienced enough paranormal power incidents to strengthen my faith that, yes, miracles/paranormal events, are certainly possible. Divine Grace DOES have the ability to intercede in human affairs!
Today, if a rationalist skeptic reads the gospels through an "atheist lens" they will surely arrive at a different conclusion than Weil, at least on some aspects, and not agree that the teachings of Christ are worth following. I speak from experience of having privately discussed the accounts of Jesus Christ, as given in the New Testament, with a leading contemporary scientist, who is a nice guy, and is a die-hard rationalist, and is quite critical of most religions, including Christianity. Not only do the rationalist skeptics contest the miracles of scripture (of various religions), they strongly contest the view that belief in God (like what was taught by Jesus Christ) does good for society! And these guys are brilliant, just brilliant, in their logical analysis.
I agree entirely on most people of faith experiencing doubt. I certainly have had my fair share of doubt, and who knows, may face doubt in future too. Though I do earnestly pray to Almighty God that I be spared any further scary and painful experience(s) of doubt.
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"Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith; and in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be an atheist with that part of myself which is not made for God. Among those in whom the supernatural part of themselves has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong.", Simone Weil, in "Faiths of Meditation; Contemplation of the divine" as translated in The Simone Weil Reader (1957) edited by George A. Panichas, p. 417, https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Christian_atheism
Slightly edited comments of mine follow without the comments of others. I have tried to edit the comments to make the flow reasonable without comment responses of others.
---------------
I looked at the above Simone Weil quotation twice, with a break in between, but I am not able to relate to it. The issue of doubt coming into the spiritual path, whether it be the devotional path or the wisdom path, is a different matter. I think doubt is quite common in spiritual journeys, no matter what the religion/tradition/sect/path. But, atheism, especially when it is taken to mean as a conviction that there is no divine power/no God, is different from doubt. Doubt holds the possibility of the divine being there, but wonders why the divine is not doing something that the doubter expects it to do. .... So that's my humble take on the matter. Maybe I did not understand the context of Simone Weil's words well - anyway, I am afraid I don't have the time now to read up her full document.
---------------
In this context, I would like share that Sathya Sai Baba is reported to have said that atheists too most certainly can achieve self-realization (in this birth itself) and that anyone (including atheists and agnostics, I guess) who gives up body consciousness - for them, self-realization is inevitable, https://ravisiyer.blogspot.com/2014/03/sathya-sai-baba-said-atheists-can-also.html. I think these words are true. My belief is that the ultimate issue is the matter of identification changing from the mind-body complex to the inner changeless awareness/consciousness, which is projecting the whole drama of creation.
About religion when being only a source of consolation being a hindrance to true faith OR a part of oneself having to be atheist: Now, for a deeper discussion of the matter, one will have to get Simone Weil's definition of the terms 'true faith' and 'atheist' and then do some hair-splitting kind of logical analysis. Maybe it is not worth spending time on such hair-splitting.
In our times, the term atheist is typically understood to be somebody who is convinced that there is no divine power (and, typically, that on death of the body everything is over for that person). [However, some, especially some of the top rationalists & scientists who oppose religion, hold the view that atheist should be understood as not theist i.e. not a believer in God. In other words, atheist should not be understood to mean that a person is convinced that there is no God.]
My strong belief is that all is God, even the rational faculty that we possess is a manifestation of God. Exercising the rational faculty within certain spheres of life (like my former profession of software development) does not mean that we are using an atheist part of ourselves. And a deity like Jesus Christ being a source of consolation may actually strengthen that person's faith and take him/her closer to merging with God even though the person may not have a proper logical understanding of the concept of God. It has been my experience in my spiritual journey over the past two decades & more, that deep faith in God is a far more powerful spiritual capability/feature than a powerful logical analysis faculty. When the situation becomes a real test, I have invariably found that the person with deep faith eventually passes the test, even if that person may be seen to have failed from a material perspective. I mean, the person may lose money or even health but he/she still has faith and is able to lead a fairly peaceful and loving life due to that unshaken faith. Whereas the powerful logical analysis faculty person with limited faith can simply lose his/her faith and become a psychological wreck, when he/she is put to a severe test.
-------------------
To my mind, part of your response raises a question, "Does consolation alone, in Christ or the Virgin Mary or any other deity/formless divinity of any other religion, have the power to obliterate the Ego?" I believe the answer to be Yes, as somebody who surrenders completely to the will of the Lord (via chosen deity or formless divinity like Allah) and becomes, so to speak, a slave of the Lord, accepting anything and everything that happens to him/her as the Will of the Lord, does obliterate the ego. The path to obliteration of the ego may be different from a wisdom/analytical path but the result is achievement of the same goal.
An atheist lens to interrogate scripture like the gospels is something that I am very uncomfortable with today. As a youngster under the influence of science (I am a Physics graduate by academic training though my work/profession was not related to Physics at all), I used a similar agnostic lens to read Hindu scripture about the Avatars like Rama and Krishna, and tended to agree with a lot of skeptic Indian intellectuals that the miracles reported there are more of poetic imagination of the authors rather than real incidents.
It was much later, a decade plus later, due to certain challenges in life that really shook me up, that I joined communities which had faith in these accounts of Hindu Avatars, and so started reading such Hindu scripture with faith. The experience of reading it with faith was a very different one from the "agnostic lens" reading I had done as a youngster! Later, as I came under the influence of a great contemporary spiritual master, I saw and experienced enough paranormal power incidents to strengthen my faith that, yes, miracles/paranormal events, are certainly possible. Divine Grace DOES have the ability to intercede in human affairs!
Today, if a rationalist skeptic reads the gospels through an "atheist lens" they will surely arrive at a different conclusion than Weil, at least on some aspects, and not agree that the teachings of Christ are worth following. I speak from experience of having privately discussed the accounts of Jesus Christ, as given in the New Testament, with a leading contemporary scientist, who is a nice guy, and is a die-hard rationalist, and is quite critical of most religions, including Christianity. Not only do the rationalist skeptics contest the miracles of scripture (of various religions), they strongly contest the view that belief in God (like what was taught by Jesus Christ) does good for society! And these guys are brilliant, just brilliant, in their logical analysis.
I agree entirely on most people of faith experiencing doubt. I certainly have had my fair share of doubt, and who knows, may face doubt in future too. Though I do earnestly pray to Almighty God that I be spared any further scary and painful experience(s) of doubt.
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