Sathya Sai 1990 Gurupoornima on sookshma sharira, and "How can one who is filled with delusions himself rid you of your delusions?"

Last updated on July 26th 2015

Sathya Sai Speaks, 'The Guru Within', Gurupoornima day, 1990, discourse extract about sookshma sharira; Message exchange with German FB friend on "Sukshma idea"; Swami's words, "How can one who is filled with delusions himself rid you of your delusions?"

Given below is an edited message exchange I had over the past few days with a German Facebook friend.
German FB Friend wrote:
Hallo Ravi,
I had read your blog with interest about the Sukshma controversy and I appreciate your balanced and analytical approach. [Ravi: The reference seems to be this blog.]

I wanted to pass on my experiences to you, which concern a dream Baba gave to me and subsequent experience, which you are free to share. I present them with no personal commentary from me - simply how they happened.

I had been open and excited by the Sukshma idea, but then in late March '15, became very disturbed by the opposing opinions I came across one evening on the net. I went to sleep very uneasy about the whole affair. Then Swami came in my dream which featured Baba in a large open air stadium with thousands there for His Darshan and me helping as a sevadal.

Then the final and relevant scene: Swami was seated in the midst of the devotees and said: "THERE ARE NO AMENITIES IN THE ASHRAMS, LIKE TOILETS. I AM GIVING THIS WORK TO DR (name unclear)." Then the doctor came forward: a young, thin Indian man with flushed red cheeks, dressed in white. He knelt by Swami, looking rather overcome with this opportunity.

So that was the dream. I was still troubled and so beseeched Swami for a sign from His book, Sathya Sai Speaks which i read every morning. It so happened that the place I was up to was the Divine Discourse of 7-7-1990 and the beginning was about Sukshma!! Well, only Baba can arrange things like that. So here is the relevant extract and I leave it to you to find what is meaningful....Sai Ram

[Ravi: I confirmed that the discourse extract below matches with Sai book trust discourse pdf, http://www.sssbpt.info/ssspeaks/volume23/sss23-25.pdf. Audio and pdf links for 1990 discourses including this one are available here: http://www.sssbpt.info/english/sssvol23.html]

--- Swami discourse extract start ---
The body is the abode of pleasure and pain. It has three forms: Sthoola (gross), Sookshma (subtle) and Kaarana (causal). The gross physical body is Annamaya (permeated by food). It is inert. It is comparable to an instrument. What we see is only the physical body. Believing that this is real and permanent, man tends to forget the all-pervading and eternal Atmic principle. The five pranas (vital breaths), the mind, the intellect and the ten sense organs (of perception and action) constitute the sookshma-sarira (subtle body). It functions in the dream state. In this state, the individual is oriented inwards. In it, man creates for himself a new world. The dream is itself the proof of its reality. It is self-constituted with no external relations. In the dream state, everything is created by the mind--forms, sounds and taste, which are experienced without any physical basis for them. This entire experience is limited to the individual concerned. If, for instance, ten persons are sleeping in one room, each person's dream is unique to himself. Each one's actions in the dream are unique to himself.

Mind creates both waking and dream states
There is no relationship between the dream and the waking state. One individual has a dream in which his friend harasses him in many ways. If after waking up in the morning he accosts his friend and asks the latter why he harassed him, the friend replies: “You madcap! I have not seen you at all!" This means that the friend in the dream and the troubles he gave are all self-created by the dreamer. All other dream experiences are also self-created. Hence, all the experiences in dreams are confined to the individual concerned and have no connection with others in the real world. The joys and sorrows experienced in the dream are the stuff of the dream state. It is in the dream state that one goes through the consequences of good and bad actions in previous lives.

[Ravi Note: I am puzzled by Swami's discourse sentence above, "It is in the dream state that one goes through the consequences of good and bad actions in previous lives.", as that does not seem to be consistent with his other teachings on Karma, where, if I recall correctly, he very clearly has stated that individuals (in waking state) have to experience fruits of their Karma (with God 'cancelling' the Karmic fruit/result very, very rarely). I plan to dig deeper into this and provide some clarifications using Swami's other discourses.]

[Ravi Update Note: I listened to the audio of this segment of the discourse and transcribed both Swami's Telugu and the on-the-spot translator's English which is provided at the bottom of this post. From that it is clear to me that the dream state that Swami is referring to above refers to "waking dream" state and NOT "dreaming dream" state. So my view now is that Swami was saying that Karmic fruits are experienced in waking dream / unrealised state. The Karmic fruits reference was NOT to a "dreaming dream" state. Hope that does not sound very confusing.] 

This means that the experiences are related to the sookshma sarira (subtle body). In this, the mind is the most important factor. It is the mind that creates everything.

--- Swami discourse extract end ---

-------------------------
Ravi S. Iyer wrote:
Had a look at your message. Well, sookshma sharira is well known as a concept in Hindu spirituality/philosophy. That is not new at all.

What is COMPLETELY UNHEARD OF is an Avatar (e.g. Rama or Krishna) appearing, after they having given up their body, as a sukshma sharira (subtle body) to one & only one individual, and interacting regularly with that person to the extent of even giving discourses!

I am very convinced by my study of so-called chosen communicator of Muddenahalli and discussion of this topic with others that Sri Sathya Sai Baba of Puttaparthi is NOT associated with that so-called chosen communicator.

However, there may be another spirit with special (Paranormal) powers that is communicating with the so-called chosen communicator, which he MISTAKENLY/INCORRECTLY is identifying as Sri Sathya Sai Baba.

Jai Sairam!
-------------------------

German FB Friend wrote:
Yes Ravi, thank you for your reply. To me the risks of getting it wrong with this unseen Sookshma and of displeasing Swami are too great to take. Plus having seen all the pandemonium and upset this has caused, would our beloved Swami - knowing this would occur - have begun on this path? Thank you again for your intelligent and respectful posts - to me your blog seems to be the 'authority' on this matter, Jai Sai Ram.
-------------------------

Ravi S. Iyer wrote:
You got it spot on, Mark, when you said, "Plus having seen all the pandemonium and upset this has caused, would our beloved Swami - knowing this would occur - have begun on this path?". It is utterly inconceivable for me that Swami would have created so much disturbance to the very organization that He himself spent so much time, effort & energy to set up and nurture. Surely, if Swami was in suukshma form, He would interact with the leaders of the official Sai orgn. directly (without any communicator in between) as these leaders have dedicated their lives to His mission, some of them spending decades in close proximity to His physical form. That the so-called subtle body in Muddenahalli has not done so, makes it clear to almost every person who was seriously involved with Swami's mission, that it is NOT Sri Sathya Sai Baba's subtle body/spirit.

The few leaders who were associated with physical Swami's mission for long, and got deeply associated with so-called subtle body in Muddenahalli, all seem to be people who were not comfortable with their roles/positions in official Sai orgn. after Swami's Mahasamadhi, and so broke away to form a rebel Sai orgn. where they are playing important roles.

Thanks for the kind words about my blog. I do try hard to write the truth as I see it. Perhaps that helps to make the blog seem balanced and authentic to readers.
--- end exchange with German FB friend ---

Ravi: Later I read the entire discourse of Swami referred above, which has the title, 'The Guru Within' and was given on Gurupoornima day, 1990. Bhagavan says these very significant words in the context of the confusion about so-called MDH communicator & so-called subtle body Swami in MDH: "It is a mark of ignorance to go after nondescript preceptors and seek messages from them. When they are wallowing in bondage themselves, how are they going to free you from bondage? How can one who is filled with delusions himself rid you of your delusions?"

I felt it very appropriate, in the context of above discussion, to share some other extracts (including the sentences mentioned in the previous paragraph) from the discourse, which are given below [Note that all the extracts below are together quite longish]:

--- start Swami discourse extracts ---

Although the mind is one, according to the different functions performed by it, different names are given to it. When it is engaged in the thought process, it is called Manas. When it is engaged in discriminating between what is permanent and what is transient, it is called Buddhi (intelligence). In its role as a reservoir of memory, it is called Chitta. When the mind identifies itself with the body, it is called Ahamkara (ego). The four names are related to the mind and their combined aspect constitutes Antahkarana (the inner instrument). Thus, both the waking and dream states are creations of the mind.

The third state is Sushupti. SU means good. Shupti means sleep. Sushupti means sound sleep. In this state the mind is absent. When the mind is not present the world also is absent. In the absence of the world, there are no experiences of joy and sorrow. The world exists as long as the mind is present. Joy and sorrow are experienced through contact with the world. Hence, the world is associated with joy and sorrow. The mind is said to be the cause of both bondage and liberation.

There is, however, one other state which transcends these states: the Atmic state. It is because of his identification with the body in the first three states that man forgets his spiritual reality. But, for all experiences the Atmic principle in everyone is the cause, though the physical forms are varied. Man is a prey to ignorance because, forgetting his Atmic reality, he identifies himself with the mind-body complex. The waves appearing in an ocean appear as different from each other. But they consist of the same water. Likewise, though man appears in innumerable forms, all these are like the waves appearing on the ocean of Sat-Chit-Ananda (Being-Awareness-Bliss). Names and forms may be different but the basis is the same.

The Atma, however, is covered in the human being by five sheaths: Annamaya, Pranamaya, Manomaya, Vijnanamaya and Anandamaya Kosas (sheaths). As a result, the Atma is not easily cognisable. The physical body is the Annamaya kosa (the sheath of food). The sheaths of Pranamaya (life-force), Manomaya (the mental sheath) and the Vijnanamaya (imbued with intelligence) form the sookshma sarira (subtle body). The Anandamaya kosa is the Kaarna sarira (causal or seed body). Although it has the name Anandamaya (blissful), it is not real bliss. It is the blissful state of the Atma that is reflected as an image in the sheath of Bliss (the causal). The mind is like the moon, which is not self-luminous. The Atma alone is self-effulgent. It is this light which illumines the body, mind, the Buddhi and the senses and invests them with consciousness.

It is this Chaitanya (Atmic consciousness) which makes the cosmos function. For the entire creation, consisting of living and inanimate objects, this consciousness is the basis. All that is experienced by the body and the mind has no real connection with the Atma. Relying on the light coming from the sun, many people perform different actions. Some may do good deeds and some others may be indulging in bad actions. The Atma is unaffected by the consequences of these actions, just as the sun is not affected by the activities done with the help of sunlight. The Sun is a witness. Likewise the Atma also is a witness to what is done by the body, mind and other organs.

But man, because of his identifying himself with the body and other organs, attributes all their activities to the power of the Atma. For all this, the mind is the root cause. It is the mind that assumes these multifarious forms. For instance, if a person builds a house, he erects within it a bedroom, a drawing room, a kitchen and so on. All these separate rooms are for his comfort. But if the separate walls are knocked down, only one hall remains. Likewise if the walls created by the mind are removed the Atma alone will be experienced.
...
As long as man is not aware of his own true nature, he will be under the delusion that the Atma is somewhere else remote from him. Like the ashes hiding the fire in burning charcoal, the delusion regarding the body is covering the Atma. Once the delusion goes, man will experience true bliss and understand the Cosmic Reality.
...
If you have doubts regarding Atma, it is because you have no steadfast love for the Divine. To develop firm love for anything, you have to get the conviction that "it is mine." Unless you acquire such a conviction regarding the Atma, you cannot become a Sthithaprajna (a man of steadfast wisdom). You will not achieve real bliss. You cannot reach the permanent state of SelfRealisation.

Develop the unshakable conviction that the Divine is present in everyone. Then there will be no room for developing differences of any kind. Conflict and disorder will have no place. Likes and dislikes will go.
...
There are two "I's" in everyone--the "I" that is associated with the mind and the"I" associated with the Atma. Consciousness of the Atma is the real "I." When this "I" is wrongly associated with the mind, it becomes Ahamkara (the Ego). When the "I" associated with the Atma experiences Atmic bliss, it realises that the universal consciousness is One, though it may be called by different names. When you eliminate the Anaatma-bhaava in you (that is, the body consciousness), you will have the Atma-bhaava (consciousness of the Universal), within you. Without this consciousness all sadhanas are of no avail.

The water vapour produced by the sun becomes a cloud and hides the sun itself. Likewise, the thoughts arising in the mind conceal the Atma. When the mind is eliminated the Atma alone remains.

For eliminating the mind and removing the delusions from it, desires have to be controlled. But the sadhaks of today have not reduced their desires. It must be realised that selfishness and selfcentredness have to be got rid of. Selfishness is the root cause of all the afflictions plaguing man.
...
If the world is to be transformed, we must begin with the individual. His evil traits have to be removed. He must fill himself with sacred thoughts.

To start with, the individual must reform himself. Without the individual realising his true nature, all other accomplishments are of no avail. Man is exploring the most distant regions in space, but is not moving even an inch towards understanding his heart. Is this the journey man should undertake? He must turn the mind inwards. Turning the mind towards the external world can only breed sorrow. Enduring bliss can be got only by directing the mind towards God. That is the real sadhana. Without mental transformation all other changes are meaningless. Without changing your qualities, you remain in the same state as before. Develop good qualities and sanctify yourself. This is the message for everyone.
...
Guru refers to one who has transcended the gunas and has no form. The gurus of today are filled with qualities of all kinds. The disciples seem to be better than the preceptors. The disciples are making sacrifices. The preceptors are acquiring possessions. In this situation it is difficult to say who are gurus and who are disciples.
...
Your true guru is God alone. He transcends all gunas. He is beyond all forms. He is the only one who can dispel the darkness of ignorance and light the lamp of Prajnaanam (Supreme Wisdom). It is a mark of ignorance to go after nondescript preceptors and seek messages from them. When they are wallowing in bondage themselves, how are they going to free you from bondage? How can one who is filled with delusions himself rid you of your delusions? Can one who is begging for food relieve your hunger?

Do not go in search of gurus. Strengthen your faith in the Atma. Seek to enjoy the Atmic bliss. Strive to develop the conviction: "I am the Atma." That is the true message. When you have grasped this Truth, all other things will be unnecessary.
...
Gurupoornima is observed as a day for honouring the Guru. Some types of gurus welcome this day as the day which brings them income. They are an inferior breed. The real Guru is only one. He is the One, the God of gods, who is hailed as father, mother, teacher, knowledge and wealth and all else. He is the Supreme whom you must seek by your sadhana. God alone can transform your spiritual efforts into a transcendental experience. You have the vision of the Divine (saakshaatkaara). The vision does not come from outside. It is within you, because the Divine is omnipresent. Only the person who considers himself separate from God will have the feeling that the vision of God comes from outside. God is everywhere. You are God.
...
Wherever you may be and whatever you do, regard yourselves as instruments of the Divine and act on that basis. You need not wait for a whole year to observe Gurupoornima. Treat every moment of your life as being intended for dedication to the Lord. This is the way to experience the Divine all the time at all places. This is true Saakshaatkaara. Serve all and love all. Firmly believe that the Divine is in everyone and constantly act on this belief. Only by continual practice can you develop this sacred attitude. Fill yourself with self-confidence and courage. Make your life a complete offering to the Divine, who is the real source of all that you are and all that you have.

There was an old woman in Uttar Pradesh who used to give away many things in charity. She used to go about with her head bowed. Some people asked her why she was humbling herself in that manner when she could hold her head high because of the numerous gifts she was making to all and sundry. She modestly replied: "When the Lord is giving me so many things with His thousand hands, all that I am giving is only with a single hand. What reason is there for feeling proud about what I am doing? Should not people feel ashamed about giving to others with one hand what God gives to them with a thousand hands?"

Hence, everyone must develop the spirit of Thyaga (sacrifice). You must serve the people with your body. You have to cherish good and noble thoughts in your mind. You must use your wealth for supporting educational and other institutions to help the people. Give food to the starving. This is the way to lead a purposeful and sublime life. Life has been given to you not to fatten yourself. The body is the basic instrument for the practice of Dharma.

Dedicate your entire time to service and the discharge of your duties. Your sadhana must not be for selfish ends. It must promote the good of others. Giving up selfishness, cultivating selfless love for others, sanctify your lives.

--- end Swami discourse extracts ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Telugu & English transcript of Swami 1990 Gurupoornima discourse section related to "dream" state where one goes through Karmic fruits of previous lives

I have given below my efforts of transcribing the related section, both Swami's Telugu and the translator's English. Please note that my Telugu is of the middling kind, certainly not great - so there may be errors. Telugu experts are kindly requested to check and report errors, if they can spare the time.

The audio of the speech was downloaded from http://www.sssbpt.info/english/sssvol23.html (dwnld link for 07/07/90)

From around 6:00
[Swami in Telugu]
Ee shareerame sukha dukhamulaku nilayamu. Edi mudu bhagamuluga vibhadhinchapadinavi. Sthoola, Suukshma, Kaaranamu ani. Ee shareeramu kevalamu annamaya praanamu. Edi paripoorna jadamu. Idi kevalamu oka panimattu (untundi). Manaku kanipinchinadi ee sthoola shareeramu. Deenini sathyamani nithyamani visvasinchi, sarvasmainattuvanti oka atmatattwanni vismaristunnaadu maanavudu.

[Above Telugu translated to English by Translator on-the-spot]
This body itself is the home for joy and sorrow. This has been divided into three divisions. And that is - gross, subtle and causal. This physical body is a result of food. This is inert totally. This is only an instrument. What we see is this physical body. Considering this as truth and eternal, man is giving up the principle of Atma which is really eternal and permanent.

[Telugu verse/song omitted.]

[Swami in Telugu]
Panchpraanamulu mano buddhi dasendriyamuluokka cherite suukshma shareeram. Deenine swapna sthithi ani kudanu cheppa vacchhu. Indulo vyakti antarbhutam aiyiuntundi. Ee suukshma shareeramulandu maanavatvamu kevalamu oka nuutana prapanchamga kanipincha untundi. Idi tanaku taane pramaanamuga (nilistundi). Idi evarikikudanu sambandha bandhavyamu lekunda parimitamayi untundi tanuka taane. Ee swapnavasthayandu samasthamulu taane kanipinchukuntundi. Rupamukaani rupamu. Vinipidikaani vinipidi. Ruchikaani ruchini kudanu taane shristinchi kuntundi. Kaani ee srishti anthayukudanu tanaku taane parimitamayi untundi.

[Above Telugu translated to English by Translator on-the-spot]
The subtle body consists of five life breaths, mind, intellect and ten senses. This may also be called dream state. The personality is not so very visible in this case [Ravi: perhaps it should be: The personality is hidden within this (or contained within this)]. In this particular state of subtle body mind creates its own new world. It is a standard of proof by itself. It is a world in itself without having any relationship with anything whatsoever. In the dream state, it creates for itself and it becomes itself many things (Ravi: that) it experiences. It is a form without form. It is a hearing without hearing. It creates also a taste without any taste (Ravi: being) there. But this entire creation is restricted to that individual's experience alone.

[Swami in Telugu]
Ee swapnamulandu padi mandi oka roomlo (bavadinchapadiniki) evari kalalu varide. Evari anubhuti varide. Evari karma varide. Ee swapnamuluku jagrataku ematramu kudanu sambandhamu undadu. Oka vyaktiki swapnamulo taan mitrudu tan aneeka vidhamuluga (a)hinchinattuga kalalu (kantaadu). Tellavari leichi mitruni kuudi, O mitramaa nannu enduku ni inta baadhapadtivi ratra anta prashninchinappudu, Are picchivada nenu ninna chudave lede, ani taanu javabu chepthaadu. Anaga mitruni taane srishtinchi konnaadu. Atani badhanu taane srishtinchi konnaadu. Sarvanabhuthanu kudanu taane srishtinchi konnaadu.

[Above Telugu translated to English by Translator on-the-spot]
In this dream state even when there are ten people living or sleeping in the same room, each one's dream is different from the other's [Ravi: Each one's dream is his own]. Each one's experience is very unique (and restricted to himself) [Ravi: Each one's experience is his own]. [Ravi: Each one's karma is his own/unique.] There is no relationship whatsoever to this dream state and waking state. One person may dream that his friend is giving him a lot of trouble. The next day when he meets the friend and questions him, why did you give me so much of trouble, he will say O madman [Ravi: I did not even see you]. That means that he has created friend in the dream. [Ravi: He has created trouble for him by himself.] He has created all the experiences for himself.

[Swami in Telugu]
Kanuka Swapnavasthayandu jarigettuvanti oka samastha anubhuthilukudanu tanuku taane parimitamu kaani, evari kudanu parimitamu (Ravi: could not catch next three to four Telugu words). Sukhadukhamulu anubhavinchinadi ee swapnavasthayulo. Karmanu(punyamga) punarjanmamu dharinchinadi ee swapnavasthayulo. Anaga suukshma shareerame. Indulo manasu pradhaanamainadi. Ee manase sarvamulukudanu shrishtimpa chesthunnadi. Mano moolam idam jagathu. Prapanchamanthaiyakudanu manomayam (poye .. kudi) untunnadi.

[Above Telugu translated to English by Translator on-the-spot]
In this way the experiences of a person in a dream are restricted to himself, they are not a reality in the real world at all. The experience of joy or sorrow is in this dream state. In the dream state he may also get a rebirth (Ravi: due to Karmic fruit/effect). And that is the subtle body. In this state mind plays a very important role. Mind creates the entire world in the dream state. [Ravi: The mind is the cause of this world.] The entire world is full of the mind, the mind is creating [Ravi: The entire world is full of Maya (illusion) created by the mind.]
--- ends around 13:00 -----

Ravi: I think it is quite clear that, for most of the time in the above section, Swami is referring to the subtle body (senses, mind, intellect & five life breaths) as being in a dream state. In other words, the dream state that Swami is referring to above, mostly, refers to "waking dream" state and NOT "dreaming dream" state. So my view now is that Swami was saying that Karmic fruits are experienced in waking dream / unrealised state. The Karmic fruits reference was NOT to a "dreaming dream" state. Hope that does not sound very confusing.