Radio Sai article on recent Swami (Sathya Sai Baba) subtle form appearance controversy
Last updated on 18th Sept. 2020
18th Sept. 2020 Update: I had an inner urge to name-snip the names of some person(s) in this post and so have done so. This post got missed out in the name-snipping I did some months ago.
Here's an interesting article by Prof. G. Venkataraman of Radio Sai on rather bizarre claims being made about Swami's (Bhagawan Sri Sathya Sai Baba's) subtle body (light body) appearances/residence in Muddenahalli and Kodaikanal, http://media.radiosai.org/journals/vol_12/01JUL14/TO-FOLLOW-SWAMIS-WISH-OR-NOT-part-01.htm
The reference to mail(s) in this regard in the above article seems to be Mr. Isaac Tigrett's mail(s). Here is a link which shows one such mail content, https://www.facebook.com/christina.hofmann.902/posts/10203813307280314. The photos in this link show the veteran Sathya Sai community/fraternity leader Shri B.N. Narasimhamurthy as well.
I thought I should also share my two paise (Indian 'cents') on the matter. Please be tolerant of my views :); I could be just plain wrong.
I have heard a lot about the good work done by Shri B.N. Narasimhamurthy and team in setting up new schools following the Sathya Sai education system. I think that is very commendable and Swami would approve of such initiatives in general. After all, it is through education, especially school education, that Sathya, Dharma, Shanti & Prema values can be effectively disseminated in society.
There is a sensitive issue about competition for funding for such activities among the older established trusts and the newly formed (separate) trusts. I think such issues would be common to all spiritual and religious movements, for example, the Christian missionary movements. Over time, I expect that any raw edges related to this competition for funds will get sorted out.
Perhaps some competition for such activities is a good thing. In commercial services field, monopolies promote bureaucracy and power craze/dictatorial attitudes as many of us in India have experienced in the pre-economic-liberalization era (prior to 1991, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalisation_in_India). My view (and experience to some extent) is that these negatives about monopoly apply to spiritual/charitable trusts as well. So it may be a good thing that we have some competing spiritual/charitable trusts trying to follow/implement Swami's mission. They can learn good and effective practices from each other and eschew bad and ineffective practices.
[Update on 1st March 2015: At the time I wrote the above (July 2014) I had thought that the competition between trusts trying to follow/implement Swami's mission would be an ethical and friendly one. Very unfortunately, I have received reports from reliable sources of what I consider to be unethical and spiritual trap kind of methods being used by the Muddenahalli group in attracting donors as well as workers for their mission. People are told that "Swami is calling them to Muddenahalli" or something like that. Now this call is transmitted through one or two mediums/Swami dream-instructions persons of Muddenahalli. And some people seem to be accepting this medium/dream-instruction call! From whatever I have heard and read of public discourses and utterances of (physical form) Swami, this kind of call delivered through intermediary was never supported by (physical form) Swami. My view is that such a call to come to/go to Muddenahalli must come directly from Swami to the person concerned via a dream or vision or something like that. This intermediary business getting involved in this call is very unethical, IMHO. Some vulnerable Sai devotees may even get scared that they must follow the intermediary delivered Swami instructions or else they may fall into some trouble. That makes such intermediary delivered calls to Muddenahalli a spiritual trap kind-of thing, IMHO. Please forgive me if the words I have used seem strong - I feel compelled to use these words given the great confusion that is now prevailing among many Sathya Sai devotees about this matter.
Another very strange thing about Muddenahalli that I read was that during Christmas 2014 they had two chairs, one for subtle Swami and another for subtle Jesus. Now for Shivarathri 2015, a report mentions three chairs at the Muddenahalli function - one for subtle Swami, another for subtle Shiva in the form of Shirdi Sai Baba and another for subtle Mother Parvathi. I have not heard of physical form Swami (i.e. till Mahasamadhi in April 2011) ever having such additional chairs in public functions for such subtle forms of Jesus or Shiva or Mother Parvathi.
As I have not visited Muddenahalli and seen the current medium there I cannot make any statement about whether he has some spiritual powers or not. Maybe he has some powers whereby he can read the minds of devotees - maybe he is really convinced that he is seeing such subtle forms of Swami (who is giving him spiritual powers), Jesus, Shiva and Mother Parvati. I cannot say that it is all fake - I simply don't know. But what I can say is this. The above mentioned matters are very different from what I saw and heard about Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba's (physical form) ways of interacting with devotees and running His mission during the eight and a half years (Oct. 2002 to April 2011) that Bhagavan graciously allowed me to serve Him in Puttaparthi/Prashanti Nilayam while He was in physical form. [I feel it appropriate to mention here that I provided free service as I sought only spiritual salary from Bhagavan which He graciously showered on me at levels far greater than I had ever expected from Him. I am very deeply grateful to Bhagavan for this spiritual salary that He conferred on me.] So I have to conclude that the Muddenahalli group has now become an unethical and spiritually strange competitor to the Sathya Sai organizations that Bhagavan Himself set up and nurtured. Further, the Muddenahalli group has become a source of great confusion to Sathya Sai devotees both in India and abroad.
It would be truly wonderful if the Muddenahalli group does not use the "Swami is calling you to Muddenahalli" means of attracting people from the official Sathya Sai organizations. My humble suggestion is that they should leave it to Sathya Sai devotees whether they want to join them or not, without any of this medium calling business. It is their work in furthering Swami's mission in fields like education and medicare that will attract the really committed workers and Sai devotees. I believe that they have ambitious plans of opening many, many Sathya Sai education system free schools as well as many free hospitals in India and elsewhere (e.g. the relatively poor Southern USA state of Mississippi) - that is truly wonderful. I earnestly pray to Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba that they get full support for such work that will further Swami's mission of re-establishing Sathya, Dharma, Shanti & Prema in the world. Perhaps if they drop the medium calling business there may be a possibility of them working together with the official Sri Sathya Sai trusts and organizations. After all, the older Muddenahalli trust was (and is) a separate body and seemed to have worked together with the official Sri Sathya Sai trust and organizations without any significant friction or confusion while Swami was in physical form. end-update of 1st March 2015
Further update on 2nd March 2015: A correspondent had passed on this short video having clips of a recent Q&A session of overseas devotees with Prof. Anil Kumar Kamaraju, where questions were raised about Muddenahalli. The video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfySaF0Dyjg, is only 8 min. 34 secs., and was published on Feb. 27th 2015. I think Prof. Anil Kumar Kamaraju asks pertinent questions of the Muddenahalli group which now seems to be threatening to divide the Sathya Sai fraternity in India and abroad, and Prof. Anil Kumar also provides, IMHO, the right advice to devotees about somebody supposedly representing Swami.
I have given a transcript of part of the video below:
Around 3:02 - Prof. Anil Kumar Kamaraju to Muddenahalli group leaders: My question is: You being Sai devotees you are obliged to explain us, why do you want to be separate. We are devotees. We are confused. I want to learn from you why you are separate. Why? If you have got some genuine reasons please come out with a statement: these are the things that made me get out, start separately. What is it that made you get out of this fold? What is it that made you independent? Let me know. If there are any problems to be one, we will all join together, bring them together and bring back that unity. Removing silly things like fund raising, somebody representing Baba. Am I clear?
...
What is expected of us right now? To be witness to all this? To be silent (in) this situation? He is God; He is God. Whether you certify He is God or not, He is God. You don't need to certify Him. There is no point in telling He did this, He did this to me. What are you doing to Him? What are you doing for Him? .. What we should do now? We should discuss, (deliberate), clearly in depth, what steps should we take to bring back that unity.
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What made you to establish a separate organization? Make it clear to the public. Because you owe responsibility to all of us. Including me. We are all confused. How long are you going to confuse us? [Deleted 2 short sentences.] Make a public statement. What made you to get out, leave this and establish a separate organization? What made you to name a person as a representative of Baba? What made you go around the world collecting money? What is it that you want? You want positions here? We will request these people to vacate some places and accommodate you because nobody is interested in positions. I am not interested. Because position will force me to hold on to this place. I am a free bird. So, what do you want? Gentlemen, you have a separate organization now. Why? You should explain. Two: What do you want? You want positions? Come on. We will request them. You want recognition? You are already recognized. And you are making a capital out of it. Is this your gratitude to Swami? What do you want? What steps you want us to take to bring you back and establish unity? Don't separate us. We devotees are one. Our God is one. Don't create confusion among us. Don't unnecessarily preach those things to divide us. Let us know clearly why. And please inform us what steps should we take to bring you together (back). Thank you. [Applause from audience] end-update of 2nd March 2015
Update of 3rd March 2015: The above updates deal with matters that are troubling the Sathya Sai fraternity, and it was quite troubling for me to put up the above updates in this blog post. After all, the current leaders, especially the top leader, Shri B.N. Narasimhamurthy sir, of the Muddenahalli group are veterans of the Sathya Sai fraternity who we all look up to and even revere for their gigantic contributions to the Sathya Sai movement. I should also mention that we all look up to and even revere Prof. Anil Kumar Kamaraju too for his gigantic contribution to the Sathya Sai movement.
So I felt it appropriate to add to these updates, Bhagavan's message on experiencing and attaining oneness with God, as this high-level message of Bhagavan may soothe us from the mental agitations that the above updates involve.
"People want to attain God, contemplate on Him and worship Him. But they do not realise that they cannot attain God by merely adopting these practices. So long as you contemplate on Him and desire for Him, it means God is different, you are different. You have to experience oneness with God to attain Him. When is it possible? When you offer yourself to God completely, you become He and He becomes you. Then you realise "You and I are one". The same is stated in the Mahavakyas (profound statements): Tattwamasi (That Thou Art) [Ravi: You are that (in simpler language)] and Aham Brahmasmi (I am Brahman). Only the one who offers himself to God completely can experience oneness with Him. Till such time, God is God and devotee remains a devotee. When you mix sugar in water, sugar dissolves in it and becomes one with it. Similarly if you want to become God, you should offer yourself to God.
It is not possible to understand the principle of oneness so far as you have body consciousness. Atma is beyond the mind and the senses. Buddhigrahyamatheendriyam (the Atma is beyond the ken of senses and can be understood only by the intellect) [Ravi: I am not sure about the English interpretation here. I am quite sure that Swami would not have meant only the rational faculty which is what I think many people consider the intellect to be. By Buddhi here, He, IMHO, may have meant the combination of rational faculty as well as the intuitive knower/awareness faculty within each of us.] Only when you transcend the mind and senses can you understand the principle of oneness."
From Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba's divine discourse on 5th Sept. 1996 which was printed in Sanathana Sarathi of February 2015. end-update of 3rd March 2015]
However, the claim that Swami is going to reside in Muddenahalli (and Kodaikanal) in His subtle form till He becomes 96 years old (solar calendar) (and provide discourses, darshan and instructions through chosen intermediaries), seems to me to be something related to the imagination of some very devoted and senior Sai devotee-leaders. I personally prefer to pray to Swami directly for divine direction (and help, many times :)) rather than go to an intermediary.
But then I also recognize that some devotees may prefer to take spiritual/divine advice/direction from such intermediaries especially if the intermediaries are very senior Sai devotee-leaders like Shri B.N. Narasimhamurthy. I guess it is their (devotees') life and so it is their choice. I will not go so far as to say that they are doing something terribly wrong. However, I would urge them to also pray deeply to Swami and try to get direction from Swami Himself who, I am very deeply convinced by my experiences including (look & gesture) interactions with Bhagawan prior to His Mahasamadhi, is always present as a subtle formless essence in the depths of our own 'hearts'/consciousness. That presence may not respond to shallow prayer but it has been my experience that it has responded, on occasion, to intense prayer.
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A correspondent shared what Swami told him about projection of one's thoughts, and some other views of his (correspondent). He approved me sharing it with others (some readers may want to particularly know what Swami told him). Here it is (I slightly modified it to fix typos/grammar as the correspondent had sent his response hurriedly):
Swamy has told several times that he does not require (any) intermediaries to get his mission running & also it is rightly said each one of us has a unique relation with Swamy, we are all directly connected in our own ways.
Once when I had an opportunity with Swamy, Swamy said what you see is the projection of your thoughts just like the (projection of the) film projector running on the screen & further said if you believe "IT" is there, it is there, & if not, then nothing at all, but GOD is above all this because I have all this creation in me & I know who is what ... etc.
But I too agree with you sir (that) the competition for funds is obvious.
Swamy is not limited to Mudennahalli or Kodai, Swamy is present in all our hearts. When I read the above I felt as if people are confused & calling on their own numbers, hence always busy or unreachable; when we recognize or realize the correct number (Swamy), which you rightly (mentioned), we (can) have direct connection rather than indirect.
--- end correspondent response extract ---
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Here is a great youtube video, Devotion to Baba- Sri B.N.Narasimha Murthy, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcKMZseZOa8, 1 hr. 16 min, published around a year ago. I added the following comment:
Wonderful and spiritually very inspiring account of Swami experiences by veteran Sathya Sai community leader, Narasimhamurthy sir, who served Swami (physical form) in important capacities over nearly fifty years. Thank you so much for this sharing.
--- end comment ---
BTW in this video Narasimha Murthy sir does not talk about supposed Swami subtle body appearance in Muddenahalli, and so it is quite a non-controversial devotee experience talk, IMHO.
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Readers may want to look at the posts, Claimed paranormal connections via mediums to Bhagawan Sri Sathya Sai Baba; Splinter devotee groups, dated 24th July 2014, and Adaptation of Pope Francis Tweet; Sai organizations should enable interested persons to have personal encounter with Sai Baba, dated 17th July 2014, as they are related to this post.
Readers may also want to view this post of mine, Non-interference is key to harmonious co-existence between multiple unrelated Sathya Sai trusts/organizations, dated 29th Sept. 2014.
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Update on 14th March 2015
Readers may want to look at two recent posts:
a) How did the current divisive challenge to Sathya Sai fraternity come about? How to counter it? dated March 5th 2015
b) Medium(s) who tell you about some private incident/interaction between you and Sathya Sai Baba - What will you do? dated March 13th 2015
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Update on 17th March 2015
Google search ranks and view count for this post as of March 16, 2015, and my suggestion/plea to resolve this confusion, are available at this post: Subtle Swami (Sathya Sai Baba) controversy blog post search ranks and stats; Let us resolve this confusion NOW, https://ravisiyer.blogspot.com/2015/03/subtle-swami-sathya-sai-baba.html.
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Update on 20th March 2015
Readers may want to look at the post, For spiritual aspirants, which is the lesser evil in an ashram system: spiritual fraud or material fraud? dated March 17th 2015.
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Update on 9th April 2015
Two short extracts from Swami's (Sathya Sai Baba's) discourses about examining the Guru before accepting him (or her) are quite appropriate for this blog post, and so are given below.
So, examine the Guru and his credentials, his ideals and practice before accepting him. Even in My case, do not be attracted simply by stories of what I "create" by a wave of the hand. Do not jump to conclusions with closed eyes; watch, study and weigh. Never yield to any one unless you feel the inner satisfaction that you are on the right path. [From: http://www.sssbpt.info/ssspeaks/volume01/sss01-09.pdf, 25-3-1958 discourse]
... do not run after Gurus who are themselves suffering from faulty vision and householder's troubles: do not beg from people who are themselves beggars. [From http://www.sssbpt.info/ssspeaks/volume01/sss01-30.pdf, 29-9-1960 discourse]
[Ravi: I think the 'inner satisfaction' part mentioned above is crucial. Something deep inside one goes positive/feels right when one is with the right guru for one's spiritual journey, in my considered opinion based on my spiritual journey including the quest for the right guru for me. This going positive/feeling right may not necessarily mean feeling good as the right guru may prescribe and administer a lot of bitter medicine to ensure that the spiritual aspirant's faulty ways are corrected. But even when being given the bitter medicine and not understanding why it is being administered at a superficial/logical/worldly level, something deep inside, at the intuitive level, prompts and is convinced that it is for our own good! Strange (or rather, seemingly strange to the worldly minded) are the ways of the real guru.]
A couple of further extracts from the 25-3-1958 discourse mentioned above, which are also very interesting:
The Guru should not force the disciple to grow with a bent in the direction that he prefers; the disciple has the right to develop on his own lines, according to his samskaaras (tendencies) and bent of mind. The old relationship of Guru and sishyas (disciples) has today become topsy-turvy; rich and influential sishyas now rule the Guru and dictate how he should behave; and the Gurus also, keen on accumulating fame and wealth, stoop to the tactics recommended by the sishyas and thus lower their status.
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My suggestion to you today is this: just as you attend to the needs of the body, feeding it three times a day, in order to keep it in good running condition, so too, spend some time regularly everyday to keep your Inner Consciousness also in good trim. Spend one hour in the morning, another at night and a third in the early hours of dawn, the Brahmamuhurtha as it is called, for japam (silently/audibly chanting a holy name/mantra) and meditation on the Lord. You will find great peace descending on you and great new sources of strength welling up within you as you progress in this saadhana (spiritual effort). After some time, the mind will dwell on the Name (holy Name/Lord's Name) (wherever) you are and (whatever) you are engaged in; and then, peace and joy will be your inseparable companions.
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Update on 18th April 2015
Readers may want to look at the post, Krishna/Sai Baba on silent witnesses to injustice, and on Yadavas claiming Krishna as theirs; My interpretation in after Sai Mahasamadhi context, dated April 16th 2015.
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Update on 29th April 2015
Readers may want to look at the post, My response to Ms. Terry Reis Kennedy's Facebook post on Muddenahalli subtle body communicator, dated April 25th 2015.
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Update on 5th May 2015
Readers may want to look at the post, How some talented people, including some spiritual leaders, can psyche themselves into false belief, dated May 4th 2015.
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Update on 6th May 2015
Readers may want to look at the post, Comment exchanges on Shri Indulal Shah sir's letter supportive of Muddenahalli organization, dated May 6th 2015.
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Update on 17th May 2015
Readers may want to look at the post, The 'come and experience' Muddenahalli line of argument; Need for unconvinced devotees to write about their experiences, dated May 6th 2015.
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Update on 17th May 2015
Readers may want to look at the post, Sathya Sai Baba in Trayee Brindavan in 90s: I never need anybody else to approach you, dated May 7th 2015.
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Update on 17th May 2015
Readers may want to look at the post, Should we simply ignore Sathya Sai Baba Subtle Body claims, and just focus on our spiritual journey?, dated May 9th 2015.
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Update on 17th May 2015
Readers may want to look at the post, Col. Bose's article authoritatively debunking Muddenahalli chosen communicator claims, dated May 16th 2015.
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Update on 17th May 2015
Readers may want to look at the post, BONES IN PRASANTHI NILAYAM, SPIRIT IN MUDDENAHALLI? - A heart-to-heart & thought provoking article by Sai university alumnus, dated May 16th 2015.
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Update on 17th May 2015
Readers may want to look at the post, Is Muddenahalli chosen communicator belief similar to Kurnool Bala Sai Baba belief?, dated May 17th 2015.
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Update on 20th May 2015
Readers may want to look at the post, Muddenahalli light body Sai Baba is NOT related to Puttaparthi Sathya Sai Baba - Conclusion drawn from 1st Jan 2009 Swami discourse, dated May 19th 2015.
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Update on 2nd August 2015
Readers may want to look at the following posts:
*) Do some leaders of spiritual movements get into Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)?, dated May 23rd 2015
*) The Venerable Howard Murphet on Dangers of communication phenomena under guise of great spiritual name, dated May 24th 2015
*) Need to move from physical form Sathya Sai to mental-form Sathya Sai or formless God Within, dated May 25th 2015
*) Safeguarding against unauthorized use of HOLY NAME of Sri Sathya Sai Baba of Puttaparthi, dated May 30th 2015
*) Authoritative & comprehensive archive of MESSAGE of Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba, dated May 30th 2015
*) BIG BLUNDER for Sai devotees to think they are Sathya Sai Avatar!, dated June 13th 2015
*) Muddenahalli subtle body claims - biggest spiritual test in post-Mahasamadhi phase of Sathya Sai mission, dated June 30th 2015
*) Nelson Mandela statement on receiving Truth & Reconciliation Commission report; Can Sathya Sai movement learn from it?, dated July 8th 2015
*) My frank (and longish) view about Muddenahalli so-called subtle body belief, dated July 12th 2015
*) Can Sathya Sai Baba really say "good is God" OR "Whether I was Rama or Krishna or Allah ..."?, dated July 12th 2015
*) Miscellaneous July 2015 Facebook posts of mine related to Muddenahalli so-called chosen communicator & subtle body, dated July 13th 2015 (Last updated on July 30th 2015)
*) Swami refusing a new car and talking about need to DEMONSTRATE SACRIFICE to achieve Moksha (liberation), dated July 17th 2015
*) Sathya Sai 1990 Gurupoornima on sookshma sharira, and "How can one who is filled with delusions himself rid you of your delusions?", dated July 19th 2015
*) SSSIHL (Sai university) urgently needs to have a Pro Vice-chancellor who is an expert on Sathya Sai teachings/writings, dated July 24th 2015
*) Sai university academics need to publish articles on Sathya Sai teachings/philosophy in fields of religion and Indian philosophy, in academic literature as well as mainstream media, dated July 25th 2015
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Update on 11th August 2015
Readers may want to look at the following posts:
*) Debate on Prof. --Name1-snipped-- and Muddenahalli subtle body believers, (blog post dated August 4th 2015 but it is a copy of Facebook post dated 12th May 2015)
*) Selected Facebook Notes on "Muddenahalli Saga" by Mr. V.R. Ganti, dated August 6th 2015 and last updated on August 11th 2015
*) Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba on PRETENDERS in 1973 discourse delivered in Brindavan, dated August 9th 2015
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Narasimhamurthy wasn't presenting himself as an intermediary. He was simply sharing a dream.
ReplyDelete@PaulKelly: Here are my two bits on what you wrote. I could be just plain wrong. So do take my words with a pinch of salt.
ReplyDeleteWell, some of Shri Narasimhamurthy's dreams did have instructions from Swami for others besides him (including at least one then senior administrator in the Sai university), and so in these matters he has acted as a medium in the past, and probably continues to do so today. That is where it gets tricky as Swami, while in physical form, clearly and unambiguously discouraged following such others' Swami dream instructions. Swami dream instructions received directly by an individual in his/her dream is a different matter, of course.
Here I must also mention that the current well known medium in Muddenahalli may not have had the following that he has now if Shri Narasimhamurthy had not openly showed support for the medium. Shri Narasimhamurthy then had (and surely continues to have in some circles even today) very, very high respect in the Sathya Sai student and alumni fraternity as well as among dedicated servitors in Swami's mission, and I believe he had earned that respect from his dedication and devotion to (physical form) Swami's mission over four to five decades. So when Shri Narasimhamurthy endorsed the current medium in Muddenahalli, this medium got more easily accepted by some Sai devotees, and rose to fame.
Thank you sir. My question would be - When Narasimhamurthy has displayed all the qualities you list and served humbly for over 50 years why would he suddenly go off the rails? If you haven't read Sri Sathya Sai Uvacha, check it out. It is available on Amazon. Read those discourses and ask yourself, can this be made up by someone? Lastly, how is it that Sri Madhusudhan is able to relate events to devotees that only Sathya Sai Baba would know? I think one of your earlier comments regarding bureaucracies is relevant here. It is good that there are different groups to help counter the tendency for overly authoritarian trends within one group. It is one of Baba's trademarks so upend things when people get too settled. What is happening in Muddenahalli also tallies with comments Baba made himself regarding the actual length of time the avatar would remain on the earth. These comments regarding the number of years that Baba would be present have not been explained by critics of the Muddenahalli phenomena. To paraphrase SSB, he said that all of his statements will come true. What is happening at Muddenahalli is the unfolding of that truth.
DeleteWe are continuing the conversation after almost a year! A lot has happened during this time to confirm my view that it is not Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba that is communicating to Madhusudhan Rao Naidu but perhaps some other power masquerading as Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba. I have blogged about it extensively elsewhere on this blog. However, if you are happy with Madhusudhan Rao Naidu you are welcome to associate with him, but do be aware that he is NOT speaking the words of Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba.
DeleteSairam Ravi,
ReplyDeleteYou raise lot of good points and being in the same situation few months back, I can fully understand what lot of Sai devotees are going through. By His grace, I was able to attend the Australian Retreat in Murwillumbah where lot of my doubts were put to rest. Do you really think people like Sri Narasimhamurthy (given 45 years of his life serving Him), Isaac Tigrett (donated more than 100 million US dollars), Sri Indulal Shah (whom Swami himself facilitated in Kulwant hall as a true devotee), Kumar Venkat etc. would stoop so low to raise money even for a noble cause? They are Tyagajivis as referred to by Bhagwan himself as the kind of sacrifices they have made in their lives, most people could not even match in many life times.
Do you really think everyone who believes in subtle form has suddenly gone mad or being scammed by some very clever con artists? Why don't you find out more or even visit Muddenahalli if possible instead of reading all the garbage on internet. If you want to read more about my experience, please visit my blog. I have laid out the reason for setting this blog in my about page.
http://saiuvacha.wordpress.com/about
@saiuvacha: Thanks for your views. I am very comfortable living in Puttaparthi and trying to follow the teachings that Swami had given while in physical form, and also trying to connect to the inner Swami. I don't see any need for me to visit Muddenahalli unless Swami directly tells me to do so via a dream or vision.
DeleteI should also mention that I am not in a position as of now to accept intermediaries/mediums related to Swami as, while in physical form, Swami very clearly advised devotees not to believe in mediums. The intermediaries in Muddenahalli may say that Swami has changed his advise now but I cannot accept that view from the intermediaries. If Swami comes in my dream or gives me a vision where He states that He has changed his advise regarding mediums then I will seriously consider it.
If others like you do believe that subtle Swami is interacting through intermediaries, I do not have any issues regarding that in general. Their life, their choice, is my view.
But I am quite perturbed by reports from reliable sources of people from Sathya Sai organization or general Sai devotees being approached by Muddenahalli group persons with messages of "Swami is calling you to Muddenahalli". That sounds like poaching to me. Why not leave it to Swami to directly interact with such persons and call them to Muddenahalli? I think that would be a more ethical approach to staffing their mission.
Sairam Ravi,
DeleteThanks for publishing my comments. Many sites discussing this issue would not entertain any comments opposing their view hence I felt the need to share my experience with the subtle body in Australia by writing my own blog. I am glad that you are keeping an open mind and that is the need of the hour for all Sai devotees.
Probably it is more difficult for you living in Puttaparthi to accept the subtle body as you must be getting inundated daily with some or the other conflicting reports from different people. For me sitting in Australia, it is easier to be a neutral observer watching the events unfold from a distance. I visited Puttaparthi during Shivaratri in 2014 and stayed there for a week. My travel agent kept pushing me to go to Muddenahalli, saying that lot of miracles are happening there. I refused politely because to me, Swami was in Prashanthi and there was no need to go anywhere else. However all that changed when Swami's subtle body visit to Australia during new year's eve. Four of us decided to go from our centre with an open mind deciding to walk away if there was any talk of money or any attempt to start a new organisation. However no such thing happened and we came back convinced that Swami was present in the subtle body during the entire retreat and it was HE who spoke through Madhusudhan.
I am not sure who has been approached by whom, in Swami's name hence I can't comment on your last paragraph. But if I was called, I would definitely go and experience it myself. If I felt later that this whole thing is just a charade, I would say so openly and warn everyone about it. What one should not do is to have preconceived ideas about anything and dismiss the whole thing without even experiencing it.
No one can convince anyone about anything. As humans, we form our own opinions based on our own experiences. Just as Vivekananda said “Be an atheist if you want, but do not believe in anything unquestioningly.”
Sairam Saiuvacha,
DeleteThough I live in Puttaparthi, I live outside the ashram, and rarely visit the ashram nowadays. So I write/blog quite independently of any fear or influence of Puttaparthi ashram system. But I must also say that I am a well-wisher of the Puttaparthi ashram system, and so may have some bias towards it.
I entirely agree with basing one's opinions on experience. If some people are having good experiences with Muddenahalli group in general, naturally they will want to continue to have those good experiences by associating with them. While I don't subscribe to subtle Swami based on teachings & directives of physical form Swami, if it works for you and others, who am I to judge or interfere?
My concerns are limited to expressing my view about what I see as unethical poaching of Sathya Sai organization members and Sai devotees by messages of "Swami is calling you to Muddenahalli" being delivered via mediums/intermediaries. However, you do not seem to find any ethical problems with such messages. Perhaps we should just politely agree to disagree on this matter and leave it at that.
I have read this complete blog and wish to share few thoughts
Delete.first of all I would like to congratulate Central trust Puttaparthi for effieciently continuing swamis mission to the best possible extent!
!it is hard to satisfy everyone but they are trying their best to extend all facilties to public and Ashram is being run in a very efficient manner !Running a mission Like Sathya sais Is very (read infinite very) difficult task for central trust and it is bound to be have some frictions and criticism ....becoz after all the office bearers are human beings !Swami could run it with little finger because he is God and nothing is beyond his reach!It is very easy to critise or find faults Only if the critics run such Ashrams would they know of the heavy responsibilties day in and day out!
!.Reg Muddenahalli surely it is adding confusion to the sai devotees especially the ones who have been recent or always had some element of doubt!
Mr.Narsimha murthy/Mr.Indulal Shah/MrTigreet are big well known names in swamis circle .No doubt they have been for long associated with Swami ....But for Every devotee Swami /his teachings comes first and rest all are only secondary!
Swami has always been synonymous only with Puttaparthy Prashanthi NIlayam ...Swami has time and again told that He does not need any medium or intermediate person to speak to his devotees .The best part of Puttaparthy is Ther is no Hundi ...No charge for entry no special entrance tickets !...Rich or poor easily can approach Bhagwan !
.The real beauty of Sathya sai organisations is that Money is not collected in any form neither is begged for unless given voluntarily ..Swami has never asked for any money !If Tigrett had given donations .it is his conviction that swamis mission deserves it !
Reg Narasimha murthy/Indulal Shah?Isaac Tigrett endorsing Muddenahalli..Isaac has the dubious distinction of speaking unplesant talks(read blatant lies) reg.swamis activies with students !it is also perhaps swamis leela that he made Isaac say such things so that sai devotees are able to know the real person inside and dont trust anyone just becoz they are donors !
It is very unfortunate that these people chose to separate..It is a guess on the part of some long time devotees that perhaps Indulal/Tigrett etc wanted some important posts in Central trust and were not given perhaps due to their age or other factors and hence they chose to break apart!
If they say *swamis calling* or mobillising donations then undoubtedly they are misusing swamis name ..They might make umpteen proofs of dreams of talks subtle forms etc., Those might even have proofs//But If they do not follow swamis warning of not to misuse his name in anyway ....then it is nothing worth !
This is nothing new ... Even during his life time he witnessed his image being tarnished through unpleasant talks /false claims ..After his mahasamdhi media for some time spoke all blatant lies But Slowly they understood the magnitude of Swamis mission and his self less service and now almost all media seem to speak in a revered manner! It seems swami willingly does divine leelas and in the end all confusions are cleared themselves !!!Jai sai ram!
@anonymous: Thanks for your comment.
DeleteI think your words about some people of the rival group are rather strong. I decided to retain your comment in this form (without replacing it with an edited version cutting out those strong words) as I think this massive confusion churn being caused, especially in some countries outside India, among the Sathya Sai devotee fraternity needs to be resolved, one way or the other. [Recently the rival group had been to Malaysia with supposed subtle Swami through medium/communicator making very big statements. E.g. "I will unite the whole world. Narasimhamurthy told just now, the last few years of mine is only for uniting the whole world." Given the lack of unity in quite a few parts of the world today where people are losing lives in civil war or insurgency kind-of situations, such a statement is really a very, very big one.] Stifling some strong opinions may delay resolution of this confusion.
I have given my views below as points:
1) Mr. Tigrett has been a great patron of the Sathya Sai fraternity. One should not forget all the good he has done for the fraternity.
2) The dedication and contribution of both Shri Indulal Shah and Shri Narasimha Murthy to the Sathya Sai movement till Swami's Mahasamadhi is enormous. Later generations of Sai devotees (including me) have to be very grateful to them for the platform they helped to create for us to know about Swami and His teachings, and a satsangh where we could attempt to practice those teachings together and learn from each other. I think Prof. Anilkumar Kamaraju has got it spot-on when he asked a leader of the rival group to come out with a public statement on why they have separated from us (the mother organization which they themselves played a vital role in creating and shaping). Perhaps if Shri Indulal Shah, Shri Narasimha Murthy and Mr. Issac Tigrett give a joint public statement on the matter, including any divine experiences they have had via the Muddenahalli medium/communicator with supposed subtle Swami at Muddenahalli, then we Sai devotees will have a better picture. So far, all these matters seem to have been discussed behind closed doors by top leaders of the official organization and the Muddenahalli group. Devotees don't know what is happening. I think if the Muddenahalli group veteran leaders mentioned above share directly with Sai devotees their view of the matter (by putting it out on the Internet, say), this confusion can abate. I think they cannot be silent any more - they owe it to the very organization they played such a vital role in creating and growing and which nurtured later generations of Sai devotees like me, to publicly tell us what is happening and advise what we completely confused Sai devotees should do in this matter.
3) I agree that overall the Central Trust at Puttaparthi must be congratulated for continuing to run the Puttaparthi setup in the absence of Bhagavan's physical form. You wrote, "Only if the critics run such Ashrams would they know of the heavy (responsibilities) day in and day out!" I entirely agree.
Slightly edited version of Prof. Anilkumar Kamaraju's mail response to me on the above comment exchange with anonymous:
DeleteI am thankful and appreciate you for your valuable services in this area at this moment strongly reminding time and again the teachings of Bhagwan and thus help those that are confused and need clarity and timely reminder . It is here JNANA the Gospel of Sai/teachings of Swami support our faith so that it would be unwavering, steady and in a way develop CONSTANT INTEGRATED AWARENESS.
We may suggest every one to make copies with excerpts from Swamy's messages regarding this confusion and distribute emphasizing that He will never possess any one and that He does not need any medium and above all that He is totally against fund raising. If you need I can supply material. Let every one know authentically with references.
We may recommend devotees to think deep along these lines and take all possible measures to prevent people from further confusion dilemma and doubt.
We should think of UNITY based on purity leading to divinity.
Let people give up craze for positions in the organization.
Let every one sink differences like caste, region, language etc so that the world will know that we are a spiritual organization and not a social or political organization where these are common and expected.
In view of the present situation we need leaders who can spare more time who can work with vision in full understanding of the recent developments. More than resourceful they need to be more committed to mission of Sai.
Urgent need is to know the pulse/feelings/needs of devotees rather than meetings with pedantic thoughts and expressions.
It is essential to move freely & lovingly amongst devotees.
Come forward with innovative creative novel programs and activities in tune with the aspirations of youngsters/present generation.We should at the earliest come out of routine monotonous repetitive out dated programs .
Every speech /activity should reflect uniqueness of this AVATHAR and we should learn how to portray from SWamy's point of view whatever we say either upanishads or puranas or any spiritual subject.
We need committed people not political opportunists or non-committal, neutral ,so called devotees that observe meaningless silence when there is a threat to the organization and mis-interpretation of His teachings.
Sairam Prof. Anilkumar Kamaraju sir!
DeleteThank you so much for your kind words and your thoughts on this matter.
Sai ram Mr. Ravi.Thank you for publishing my comments as well as Prof.Anil Kumar's.He has clearly said it .Thanks to him for that! .
Delete.As an outsider (not residing in puttaparthi ) i can assure that thankfully some ardent devotees who reside in various parts outside till today dont know about such confusions (either anything at all or they dont know .in detaill). .So it is best if these confusing things are nipped off in bud... My suggestion on the same as a sai devotee:
..1.There are lot of committed people at samiti levels.serving sai as convenors and other office bearers ...They are the persons who are in contact with local sai devotees new or old and also public ..
2.. Their services could be/should utilised in an efficient way in driving away such confusions .be it distribution of material which has swamis talks related to such matters or even organising visual slide shows( showing such teachings to local devotees and interested public .
3.First the office bearers should not have any confusion whatsoever reg swami possessing /talking in subtle form etc ..If they have such confusions that need to be clarfied without any doubts b state level of SSSS Organizations .
4..Reg collection of money almost all devoteesknow very well that swami is totally against collection of funds.using his name .But this can be reiterated again and again so that the message is strong!
5.Reg Unity .There is ofcourse some petty politics at all level in some.units .but the best fact is everyone loves swami .so solwly differnces can be over come by driving the message of unity again and again
6.Technological . Innovation is highly necessary for bringing and sustaining youth . also sai youth role models who are pracitisng sais teaching day to day serving the society and leading a peaceful life ! Old ideas of reaching out need to be shed.keeping with times..
7....(If any)Internal politics/desire for power and difference of opinions among the office bearers at all levels need to be nailed and they should be made aware to how to function as One. .
8...Again if such differences exist the next higher authority could address them/advise them privately and take corrective measures.!
So strong extremely committed /knowledgable /District/Zonal /State presidents /office bearers/convenors are need of the hour !
9.SSSSO is the Only organization which gives oppurtunity for anyone who wishes to do service irrespecitve of caste creed religion or social status.and many a times without spending any money!Hence Unity of faith and shedding of all differences need to be encouraged at all times
10. In short .strengthening sai organization at the grass root level is important .in the removal of confusion ..
.This is possible with able guidance and leadership of highly competent state or country or zonal or district presidents as applicable!
The central level of the organization ( perhaps) needs to commence activties targetting the removal of such confusions right from the grass root levels including the international devotees ..The samitis need guidelines on this becoz at the end of the day samitis cant function independently but are finally under the control of central level !.
.SSSSO( read the official wing) must continue to flourish well for the sake of the welfare of the universe both the present and future generations..
. .. For want of time and space stopping it here ..
Sorry if any part of my writings was over done grammatically wrong and not keeping in line with the topic.. or inappropriate in the choice of words .You are doing a good job in creating awareness ...At the end of the day Every devotee needs to become confident that Swami is God and he does not need any intermediate person or money to be with devotees .Thank you ..Jai sai ram..
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteEdited version of saiuvacha comment made on March 2, 2015 at 1:53 AM:
DeleteI just watched the video. Anil Kumar is (completely wrong) to suggest that Muddenahalli camp is collecting funds by organising overseas trips. Similar rumours were spread by the Sai Organisation in Australia as well but after attending the Australian Retreat, I can assure you that there was no talk of money or any kind of donations. In fact, all participants were fed 3 times free of cost and not even registration free was charged which is normally the case in such retreats. [Deleted sentence.] It is (Prof. Anil Kumar) who invented or subscribed to the theory of Solar vs Lunar calendar to justify Swami's untimely departure. [Deleted sentence.] Sorry Professor, You lost me when you came to Australia and when asked about Vedam chanting, gave a cunning answer about cat in the box story. Very different from when you translated Swami's discourse in 2006 during Ati Rudra Maha Yagna, where you thundered from the podium that it is Swami's wish that Vedam should be chanted by one and all irrespective of country, caste, colour, race or religion. Truth remains the same irrespective of time and place. You only told us so Professor. Peace. Sairam
Slightly edited version of original comment by Ravi S. Iyer on March 4, 2015 at 4:40 AM
DeleteThe fund collection methods used by Muddenahalli group during overseas trips may be more subtle than registration fees for retreats. However, my view is that in this post-Mahasamadhi phase, fund collection for proposed service to man/society activities done in a transparent and accountable way, is OK. I mean, one needs funds to meet the expenses for service activities, especially large scale activities like free education institutions and free hospitals.
The problem for people like me is if and when subtle fund collection is done using claimed paranormal connections to subtle Swami, as while in physical form, Swami has very unambiguously warned devotees to stay away from such people.
Regarding your very strong criticism of Prof. Anil Kumar's view about Muddenahalli group fund collection from overseas trips: My view is that Prof. Anil Kumar Kamaraju would have made his comments based on information received from reliable sources. One should not forget that Prof. Anil Kumar Kamaraju is one of the most recognized and visible faces of the Sai fraternity over decades with huge level of contacts in the fraternity both in India and abroad. So his words, IMHO, should not be taken lightly.
Of course, Prof. Anil Kumar Kamaraju is also human and one may not agree with everything that he says. I do not know whether he invented the "theory of Solar vs Lunar calendar to justify Swami's untimely departure". But I do not subscribe to the lunar calendar theory. Like so many Sai devotees, I too was in shock for a few months when Swami gave up His physical body in April 2011 as I had no doubt whatsoever that He would be in His physical body till 96 years of (solar calendar) age. Today I have fully come to terms with His Mahasamadhi. I do not know why He gave up his body then. But neither is it very important for me to know why. He has given enough to us in the 85 years that He was amongst humanity. Now it is upto us to sincerely attempt to follow His teachings (even if we stray a little here and there, sometimes) and further His mission of spreading Sathya, Dharma, Shanti & Prema in the world. Whether we do that as a member of the official Sathya Sai organization or as a member of an organization unrelated to the Sathya Sai organization or in an individual capacity, is upto us and what we are comfortable with, IMHO.
[For the past three years I have not been associated with any Sathya Sai organization even though I live in outside-ashram Puttaparthi, and do my service activities of blogging on spirituality & religion, and on improving the practice of software development in Indian Computer Science and Information Technology academia, in an individual capacity. I should also mention that I decided to opt for individual capacity service as I felt that after Bhagavan's Mahasamadhi the attitude & behaviour of some administrators in the Sai university (where I was offering free service as a teacher of software lab. courses and as a technical consultant for student software projects) had changed significantly and was not to my liking. So I felt it was time for me to get a move on.
I continue to have very friendly relations with many people working in the various Sathya Sai institutions in Puttaparthi and also benefit from the Puttaparthi Sathya Sai institutions/activities like the General Hospital, Radio Sai, Sanathana Sarathi, Prashanti Reporter etc. So, while I currently am not a member of the Puttaparthi based Sathya Sai institutions, I am a strong supporter of them.]
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDelete@saiuvacha: I decided to put up an edited version of your last comment here as I have great respect for Prof. Anil Kumar Kamaraju. The edited comment (from saiuvacha) is as follows:
Delete"My comments do sound a bit harsh on retrospect and you can edit/delete those offensive parts but the truth remains that either Prof Anil Kumar should put up the evidence that Muddenahalli camp is collecting money by deceit or (not talk about it). Swami does not require a letter of approval from (anybody) to do what he wants. Why is he trying to stop people from visiting Muddenahalli is beyond me as I see no one from Muddenahalli stopping anyone from going to Parthi. If he is afraid that people will stop coming to Parthi, then I can assure you that most people who visit Muddenahalli would also visit Puttaparthi. It is He who is seeing two where there is only one. Peace. Sairam" end-saiuvacha-edited-comment.
Ravi: @saiuvacha: I cannot edit your earlier blogger comment - only delete it (or provide an edited comment in my name like above). It's OK. We can leave it as it is. The first sentence of your comment above helps to make the debate/conversation more polite.
Jai Sairam!
@saiuvacha: After some more thought on the matter I decided to put up an edited version of your earlier comment referencing Prof. Anil Kumar Kamaraju and the video with clips of his talk, and put up a slightly edited version of my response comment.
DeleteSairam Ravi, You have done a good job in capturing the essence of my thoughts. Those who wish to interact with me, can always do so by commenting on my blog at https://saiuvacha.wordpress.com/
ReplyDeletethanks again. May Swami bless us all.
Sairam saiuvacha, Thanks for your comments and co-operation with my editing of a couple of your comments. Amen to "May Swami bless us all".
DeleteProf. Anilkumar Kamaraju responded to an email where I shared most of my above comment exchange with saiuvacha. His response was as follows:
ReplyDelete"VERY VERY GOOD !!!
A most dispassionate, unbiased, open and balanced stand that you have taken is commendable.
I fully agree with your views expressed on every single point.
MAY BABA BLESS YOU."
I responded to Prof. Anilkumar sir as follows:
"Thank you so much for your encouragement and kind words, Prof. Anil Kumar sir. Thank you for your invocation of Baba's blessings on me."
This youtube video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbCTvS89msQ, 5 min. 59 secs., has an audio clip of one of the most dedicated and physically very close servitors of Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba during the last decades of His physical presence amongst humanity, brother Satyajit Salian.
ReplyDeleteSatyajit speaks about how Swami intensely rebuked a long-time devotee who was, shockingly, trying to almost convince (physical form) Swami that Swami was speaking through a 14 year old boy in Bangalore who claimed to be a medium of Swami. Swami's words (I presume that Swami would have spoken in Telugu only), as per Satyajit in this video (at 2:25):
"You have been here close to me for so many years. How could you even bring this up in my presence? Buddhi unda leda Neeku? (Don't you have any common sense?) Naaku em pattindi vaalu (vaadu) paadu shariramulo cheradaniki? (What business (need) do I have to enter into that dirty body?) If I want to talk to somebody I can figure out a way. Nenu matlaadaalante nenu matlaadutaanu. Nenu nerega matlaadutaanu. (If I need to speak to somebody, I can speak directly.)"
The audio clip of this youtube video may have been taken from the (original) video of brother Satyajit Salian's talk at Santa Ana, California, USA on 22nd February 2014, which was put up on saicast.org. At 34 min. 35 secs (the actual matter starts after 40 min. 05 secs) in (first of the three videos listed), http://www.saicast.org/2014/2014FebSatyajit.html, Satyajit starts talking about claimed mediums to Swami.
Dear Ravi,
ReplyDeleteReading your article as a neutral person (not a devotee but admirer of good works of Sai baba) - I feel that the organization created by him is going the way sects would have started in Islam centuries ago, which are killing each other today in middle east and elsewhere.
My understanding of baba and his work is that he proposed selfless service to attain moksha. How does it matter if this service is done under the banner of old trust or new trust as long as it carries the strong imprint of Sai on them?
And from where the question of "poaching" comes - is this a spiritual organization or a call center type private setup that we are talking of? Is Sai so weak that he would let his disciples conned so easily? The actions/opinions of the Central trust is very similar to what it should be of an incumbent (of power/ resources) - not having faith on Sai and his disciples about choosing their own paths while going in the direction shown by their Guru.
Dear Kotlerwa,
DeleteI do not really have a big issue about an unofficial Sai organization doing Seva activity in the name of Sri Sathya Sai Baba (some others may not agree with my view, that's fine with me). But the crux of the matter is the claim that Swami's subtle body is speaking through a chosen communicator. That, in my considered view, is a false claim.
The poaching issue crops up when gullible people in the official Sai organization are told that "Swami is calling them". Unfortunately, many Sai devotees have fallen into this trap, thinking that really it is Sathya Sai Baba who is calling them to the other place, especially if some mind & memory reading powers are demonstrated to them by MDH person/persons.
I think you seem to have the view that I should keep quiet when such activities are done. I disagree with you. So let's politely agree to disagree on this one.
Om Sai Ram,
ReplyDeleteSwami said many times "I am God, not this body you see here walking around". Also HE said "Only God exists". Or "God is everywhere", "God is the one who speaks". Brahmarpanam "God digests". God is the doer of anything.
So for sure it is God speaking through Muddenahalli person, if you have an advaitic view. And when swami said in the past "I never speak through another person", this seems to me more from a dualistic point of view. And HE always added "I don't need a medium, I can speak directly to you".
And that is the whole point, what we are learning now. This is a marvelous leela of swami, to make us aware of swami inside us. Even recently I read that Sukshma Baba told that we should not run after Sukshma Baba, or go anywhere, swami is already with you whereever you are.
I go every week to a church. Christians here judge so much other religions (non christians), and in the beginning I was not so happy with it. Then I discovered I also still easily judge (even while trying not to do so). So I decided to keep going to the church, till my judging habit was gone. Now 1,5 year later, my judging is much less.
I see a wonderful lesson for all of us here. Stop judging. I remember swami telling in a christmas discourse in Whitefield (year 2000?). Those people who talk negative on the internet about me. I don't want my devotees to defend me. Defending yourself is a form of weekness. And anyway, I am God, I can take care of myself. I don't need you to do that for me. So continuing this line of thinking, I think it is not wise to point fingers at Muddenahalli. Better to see God everywhere. I don't see them killing anyone, the opposite is true "building hospitals". I only see good sofar.
But what I do see, is that when people start judging, the other person gets irritated. We are on the spiritual path. Rule number 1 is "Do not judge". Also in the bible it is said. Christians still don't get this. But we with swami as our guru, should not make this mistake, should we?
When I came to Baba in 1990, people asked me when I came home "How do you know Baba is real, maybe he is a cheat?". And I answered "If Baba is a cheat, I still have learned a lot of good things from him". BUT if HE is a POORNA AVATAR, I rather not risk having judged HIM. I studied 5years engineering, so better start with 5years study and stay with Baba before even thinking about judging HIM. After 12 years staying in the ashram, I still don't understand Baba, but I love HIM. I don't fear HIM (maybe because I don't judge HIM; most people who judge have a lot of fear).
In the above I also read, that it is good to have your own experience. No need to talk if you have not experienced it yourself. I totally agree. Swami had me goto Muddenahalli last Christmas. I had a wonderful time. People in Muddenahalli were very very friendly. When Sukshma Baba spoke to me (unasked, by surprise), it was the same topic swami spoke to me about. Can be coincidental, can be swami. I don't know. Swami is far beyond my understanding. He told me to see God in all. That's what I practise. So I say "Thank you Baba, for this nice new leela you give us now".
I don't care if Sukshma Baba is true or not. I learn a lot, and feel swami closer every day. That's what counts for me. Yoga Vasistha teaches us to accept the truth if spoken by a dumm person, but to reject the words of a saint when untrue. I like that.
I have plenty of Baba's discourses. I don't need new ones. But how nice it is for people who never met Baba, and now have some nice experiences with Sukshma Baba. Even when I was lining up in Muddenahalli, I had flash backs to the wonderful years of lining up, many hours daily. And I am happy if other people get the same thrill now in Muddenahalli that I had. Those ashram years were the best years of my life.
Namaste
Om Sri Sai Ram
DeleteYes, it is the absolute God who speaks through the chosen communicator, and it is the same God principle that when in Maya does some bad actions too. From an Advaitic/Upanishadic point of view good & bad are two sides of the same coin!
But here the question is whether it is Kali Yuga Avatar, Sri Sathya Sai Baba who is speaking through the MDH chosen communicator. And, there, my considered view is that it is NOT Sri Sathya Sai Baba speaking but it is some other spiritual power.
Well, Swami has on so many occasions asked devotees, in public discourses, to criticize (and drive away) people who claim to be mediums (and communicators) of Swami. I prefer to follow such instructions of Swami. You are free to choose some other quotations of Swami to suit your viewpoint. Note that all I am doing is to write about the matter openly and inform interested Sai devotees of my view of the matter. I am not interfering in their hospitals or educational institution activities or other Seva activities.
I have nothing against you enjoying your experiences in MDH, and am happy for you. In fact, I like the way you are referring to the spiritual power there as Sukshma Baba. My problem is the claim they are making that it is the same Sathya Sai Baba of Puttaparthi. If they start using the name of Sri Sukshma Sai Baba of Muddenahalli for the MDH spiritual power's darshans, interviews and discourses (through a communicator), I will have no problems with them at all! Like I have no problems at all with Kurnool Bala Sai Baba or Nepals' Sanjay Sai Baba.
Namaste! Jai Sai Ram!
Om Sai Ram,
DeleteSwami mentioned in discourses "I lie more now, than in Krishna avatar". This for sure indicates "Sai=Krishna" (don't tell Krishna devotees, they might get mad, the same way the madness goes around between Parthi and Muddenahalli). SathyaSaiForm was NOT lying, so the above might mean "I am in you all, because you lie, so I lie". Easy to understand when I consider 5000 years ago Kali Yuga started, so less lying and cheating as compared to now (Kali Yuga is full on).
According to Baba's words above "Kali Yuga Avatar, Sri Sathya Sai Baba" for me is GOD almighty. Only 1 God exist. Baba himself emphesised repeatedly "I am NOT this SathyaSaiForm, I am God. So Sai is the same speaking through you, me, and MDHboy ALSO (But as per KaliYuga of course also lying through you/me/MDHboy). From your words, I read that you see Baba as that SathyaSaiForm in Parthi.
Anyway, although it is swami/GOD talking through MDH boy (IMHO). I prefer to listen to God within ONLY (no KaliYugaMedium in between). So for me no need to goto MDH (unless "SwamiInside" prompts me for whatever reason to go; then I will listen if SukshmaBaba tells me something, BUT quadruple check with "SwamiInside").
OM Sri Sathya Sai Baba JIKI, JAI
I also believe that there is only ONE divine power, which we call God, that exists, and projects this whole seeming multiplicity of the universe. But, for me, it is a belief, and not an experience (as of now, at least). In this seeming world of duality/multiplicity, I view the form of Sathya Sai Baba which passed away in April 2011, as a very powerful Divine form which taught us the way to realize our truth, and also revealed a lot of Divine matters to us.
DeleteI don't believe that the communicator in MDH is speaking the words of this Sathya Sai avatar form which I have experienced, and whose discourses and words I have studied to quite some extent. Yes, this communicator's words too come from the same ONE God that powers the universe (and so do the words of everybody else), but it is not the words of the powerful self-realized divine force that Sri Sathya Sai Baba in bodily form, was.
Om Sai Ram,
DeleteRavi thank you for starting this blog. When I first heard about MDH, 2 years ago, I was totally against it (without knowing anything). Then when visiting Parthi, swami had me go there. Visiting MDH and experiencing it first hand gave me a complete different feeling about it. And now reading and writing (and ruminating) a little about it, I get again new insights. For me the whole experience has been quite enlightening. Deepening my view and understanding on spiritual matters, in particular mediums. I am grateful for those beautiful lessons and experiences.
And time will learn what was true or not. Because swami will come again as Prema Sai soon (Deo Volente). And then HE might enlighten us all, about the Muddenahalli Leela. That might be another big problem soon, to solve the mystery "who is the real Prema Sai". I won't be surprised when many claims popup soon. I use this "MDH medium leela" as a good exersize in discrimination and common sense to be ready to recognise Prema Sai when he arrives. But even if I miss out on Prema Sai, I still have Sathya Sai, and they are the same. So no worries there also. That's a comforting thought. Sai is forever with me.
Thanks again for the learning curve I had through your blog. I feel completely at peace now with the "Muddenahalli Leela". Ready, and eagerly waiting for the next "Baba Leela" our lovely Sai has in store for us. I love and enjoy HIS uncertainty more and more.
Love, Peace and Blessings to you
Taco
Om Sai Ram!
DeleteInteresting view that you have. Yes, ultimately it all His Leela. But sometimes this Leela becomes a severe TEST especially for people like me who were part of the Sai system in Puttaparthi when MDH subtle body created a lot of CHAOS & CONFUSION as the vice-chancellor the Sai university then, started believing in it and seems to have followed instructions from MDH subtle body!!! Now, I think within the Sai system in Puttaparthi at least, the view is that MDH sukshma Baba is some other spiritual power and not Sri Sathya Sai Baba. [The previous vice-chancellor who believes in MDH subtle Baba stepped down from his post in Nov. 2014.]
Love, Peace, Joy and prayers for Swami blessings to you too. Thanks.
Bro Jega Address on Swami in Light Form During Pre-PWC 03/01/2015 by Sathya Sai Mission (Singapore)
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnhhO1fbXBE
Physical Baba(Parthi) vs Virtual Baba(MDH)
DeleteSathya(Truth) Showing Sathya talked lies about medium
Yes, it was shocking when 96 yrs Baba left at 85, so did he lied about his departure, he also said, if he wants he can change that too.So, in this case he departed early.Medium(Communicator) is quite not digestible, I heard something was happening in MDH last year, I ignored it, but last couple of days, it came to my attention and has been disturbing, I can't sleep, How disturbing this is shaping up, using medium is quite against Sai Philosophy from beginning. Yes, Void, vacuum of Physical Sai has created desperatation to take anything. I did lot of studies on this astral etc. Some may know that there are 3 worlds(Physical(Earth), Middle(Trishanuku loka), Divine). Swamy quoted, people whose lives end before their term end up in middle world and try to fulfill their desires thru medium, used by devil,demon etc. Who can't go to Hell or Heaven. Swamy was always divine in Physical world or Divine world, so why will he use this middle world. I know, we cannot question his ways and means, He can do anything. Did he use any medium to create vibhuti, amruth, or cure disease at remote places, that he needs that Sukshama(Astral) form now. Let me tell, there are 16 Dimensions, 16th could be God or ultimate. Human can see or experience 3rd Dimension, and Yogi's thru Yoga/Meditation make use of other dimensions, creating vibhuti or material objects by swamy was part of those dimensions which we can't see, call miracle or magic or what ever but it has been proved quite possible, for that we need guru and Sadhana. MDH Discourses, Darshan, Benz Cars do we need this, as if we have followed what swamy said over all these years and as if we do not have sufficient videos of his beautiful form that we need this invisible form darshan, what are we selling or trying to prove, Dear Human being, you can never come out of that form to formless. We have 2 things Mind and Heart, Swamy wants us to go beyond Mind, Mind is mad monkey, it will make you believe anything, Heart doesn't fall for all these, because it is already filled with him and his love.Confusion and Chaos is only due to mind not because of Swamy in Physical or Astral form. As long as we are with Self, what for me, desire, how many ever births or Physical Swamy's incarnate you will never be satisfied or come out of this Mind Maya. I miss swamy like everyone, and as promised to his boys by swamy, he is taking care of me every moment even now, our Love saga continues and grows. My motherland is Parthi.
Scientific Explnation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnhhO1fbXBE
Bro Jega Address on Swami in Light Form During Pre-PWC 03/01/2015 by Sathya Sai Mission (Singapore).
Let me ask, who doesn't want to see swamy again, everyone right. Madhusudan (MDH) is only communicating to swamy and can see swamy, could be true, discourses, telling about personal secrets, who cannot tell, there are many who can tell , many spiritual personalities can easily tell that, and is possible, when people are in trance they can communicate with anyone, great , great grandfather too and see them.
Only thing is, we are again falling in Maya and falling prey to Mad Monkey Mind.
Sairam,
Narasimha Murthy Sir who started this with dreams in 2011 gave direction to this episode. Swamy would never create confusion like this, he plays games with us, true. I don't think, he will do anything in any form where he proves himself wrong in Physical form. Issue is starting separate trusts, creating or replacing Parthi with MDH, Reality to Virtual(Astral). Prema Sai will never associate with Sathya Sai works, like Sathya Sai never associated with Shirdi works. Each is different mission.Swamy is not going to come and fix this, we thought the same 5 years back when chaos created when Swamy left the Physical. Time is going to fix and we are going to fix. People who have to be fooled will be fooled, and who have to be enlightened will enlighten.MDH running people are good, but are in maya, so are we.
DeleteThere are no Big- Small devotees, all are same, In parthi, we have 2 stages, Form boy(very few handful boys) and non-form( remaining all students). Swamy speaks to form boys almost every day, they get so much attention some for few years, these boys will be treated or considered next to swamy in everything. As swamy quoted, more is given and more is expected. Once that period or Prapthi(fortune,grace out off previous life's Karma) ends some of them from form boys will be no where to be seen, and some of them behave entirely different as if they don't believe Swamy.Changing phase. Remaining students are always same no change , even though swamy never looks at them, but they keep loving swamy, even after decades they still love him same and more. So, who is bigger devotee now?. Due to many previous births good karma they get that form ness and once it is compensated they are out. Swamy has multiplied from one to many, he is very much present in each and every one, we do not need any other proof or medium. Believe it or not, Swamy said He cannot take Padanamaskar of himself, when he is very much present in each one of us. During last darshan, only time he did namaskar was to the divine Atma which is present in every one, because from him physical body he transferred it to us and gave up that body to decay which is meant to be.
Various Reason for Confusion:
Delete1. Is it same Sai ? (Physical vs Virtual), if Yes, then no chance for confusion, if no, then, who is this Virtual Sai, is it super natural power which is taking some old devotees,people and Madhusudan to task and making them place to its tune, it is possible, and happened many times, some say possessed, did we forget Swamy during his childhood, went thru this questioning, his brother took a stick and questioned him, Who are you ? Ghost. He declared first time, I am Sai Baba, and the divine show started.
2. If you believe Indian Mythology, God and demon are equivalent in power, only difference is, God(Good), Demon(Bad) side of same coin- Divine.
3.Question- Do we have to bother, Physical vs Virtual. Mind will make you to bother, because Mind is in society, Mind is desire, it will ask for more even after it leaves the body(dead), it will look for some other physical body to fulfill its desire. Why would divine Sai interfere, why should he ?, he is not mind to interfere, he is always atma(soul), he will come into picture only when we give up or threat to his divine drama.
4. Age 96 vs 85. Is it for Body or Is it for mission, he mentioned it was for body. He was divine before and after bodyage.He was always divine, he just gave mind 85 years of experience to enjoy and know him, love him. Medical Projects, Schools are not his purpose, they are just examples to replicate, good, we are getting new projects but means should be clear, do not claim Swamy asked me to do etc. I got experience in December 2014, swamy mentioning me, Swami's Birthday should be celebrated every day, every moment and not limit to just few days in a year, so I started every day bhajans for whole year 90th.It is going on so smooth, because I surrendered, it is his project.
5.Since, some are claiming of Astral Swamy presence, we should have taken Central Trust into consideration and discussed internally and worked out a solution, I know we have many minds here, it is difficult to get easy Approval but it is not mine or your project, if it is Swamy's project, it is easy to get Approval. Sai is not political party to make groups.
Certainly this Mudenahalli matter have hurt to many,I think many people a re new devotees to and them are the one which have been cut with Scam , many people long time or not devotee the don't read much about what Swami Say a bout this topic and many others. today I get something very interesting from Radio Sai please read .....WHEN SILENCE IS CRIME - A DIVINE DISCOURSE
DeleteFailure to resist evil is Crime
When the good are associated with the wicked and do not oppose them, they share the responsibility for the deeds of the evil doers. The Divine destroys even those who either do not oppose or remain passive while injustice and wrong doing are perpetrated.
The Divine will not consider whether they are learned or ignorant, wise or unwise. If they are learned or wise, why did they not stand up for truth and justice? Why did they remain silent? It means they are tainted by the same guilt. The failure to resist evil is their offence. It is only when we resist acts of unrighteousness and injustice and try to put down malpractices in society that we can claim to be assisting in the task of restoring Dharma.
In Treta Yuga, Ravana's brother, Vibhishana, could not put up with the wrong deeds being done by Ravana. Opposing these actions, he tried to correct Ravana in all possible ways. But when his efforts failed and he had no alternative, he sought refuge at the feet of the embodiment of Dharma, Sri Rama. The prime offender was Ravana alone. But in the war with Rama, all the Rakshasas who supported him or sided him, perished with him. They paid the penalty for their abetment of his crime. Whoever may commit an offence, whether a son, a relation or a close associate, one will be free from the taint of being accessory to the crime only if he opposes the wrong action and tries to correct the offender. If on the contrary, he allows it or encourages it to be done, he will be guilty of abetment.
When Silence is Crime
Bhishma, Drona and others, having been beneficiaries of the sustenance provided by the wicked Kauravas, chose to be loyal to them and stayed on. All of them were great preceptors. They knew well the distinction between righteousness and evil. They had enquired into the nature of the eternal and the permanent. Of what avail was all that knowledge?
When it came to practising what they knew, all their knowledge was of no use. In the final outcome, all of them met with the same end in the great war as the evil-minded Kauravas. Krishna looked upon those who, even if they were good in themselves, did not oppose unrighteousness and injustice committed in their presence when they had the capacity to do so, as actual participants in the crimes. When evil and injustice and violence are being perpetrated, if individuals look on unconcerned, they must be regarded as accomplices in the crimes. In the end they also suffer as much as the criminals. By their passive association, they provide encouragement to the evildoers.
Sathya Sai Speaks 19:23
http://www.sssbpt.info/ssspeaks/volume19/sss19-23.pdf
Thanks Sai Mafalda for sharing the above very appropriate Swami message, in the context of this post.
Deleteswamis ways are mysterious...after maha Samadhi which I assumed swamis lunar calendar system came into play for the 96 years completion....based on that assumption maybe swami will reincarnate gunaparthi Karnataka in physical form after eight lunar calendar years...with swami its just plain love & surrender works.Maybe his leelas are continuing in subtle forms,but swamis teachings says,there is no separation of swami and us,he is in front of us -behind us-besides us-above us-below in each and every particle ....that being written,jai sai ram
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