Last updated on 16 Jun 2023
Note: This is a sensitive topic and I may be wildly wrong. But I felt an urge to write and publish it as it may benefit some spiritual aspirant(s), and so have done so. Any constructive criticism is welcome. I will be glad to change my views based on new material that I have so far not read or viewed. end-Note.
Firstly I would like to say that well established in self-realization persons would surely not have fear of (bodily) death. The question in my mind is how they would view bodily pain and weakening of body due to disease and old age. Would they fear having bodily pain and suffering and so try to avoid it whenever possible? If they do have bodily pain and weakening of body due to disease and old age, how do they handle it?
In what follows in this post, when I use the term self-realized person, I mean a well established in self-realization person. In my own case, I am NOT such a well-established in self-realization person but have had some limited self-realization experiences which I have put up here: https://ravisiyer.blogspot.com/2023/05/my-limited-self-realization-experiences.html .
In this post, I am looking at contemporary and near-contemporary (20th century and this early 21st century which I refer to as 'our times') self-realized persons who have publicly shared their self-realization accounts. When I say self-realized person(s) in the following part of the post, it should be understood that I am referring to these publicly claimed self-realized persons.
Based on fair amount of reading and viewing (videos), I think most self-realized persons of our times are as vulnerable to future health issues and associated bodily pain and weakening of body due to disease and old age they may have to endure, as any other common person.
I don't think that most self-realized persons of our times are able to be in experience of bliss or great joy when their body is going through significant pain and discomfort. I may surely be wrong in this statement I have made. I welcome corrections from readers which are supported by some articles/videos.
Note that some mystics claim to have capacity to go beyond body consciousness at will. I recall coming across one account by a living mystic who says that (through his spiritual/mystic abilities) he could go through his hand or leg injury being stitched by a doctor without anesthesia. He claims that he continued to have a normal conversation with the doctor while this was being done. But I think such cases among self-realized persons of our times, is rare.
In these health issue situations involving bodily pain and weakening of body due to disease and old age, a self-realized person may be ready to endure what he/she has to endure and even have the capacity to be established in the Witness/Awareness/Atma state and view the bodily pain and suffering in a dispassionate and detached way. But even in such cases, I think most self-realized persons would go through or experience bodily pain and suffering. Whether he or she would then attempt to get relief from it or simply let it go on unless somebody else ensures that medical treatment is provided for it, is something I don't know enough about to comment.
Perhaps most, if not all, of these self-realized persons may not really be fearing bodily pain and disease. If it comes they may accept it (perhaps also accept it as will of God) and go through it with a high level of equanimity. Some of them may be following good health practices and following medical advice within the limits imposed by their material circumstances and so may not be negligent of their body. However, such persons may also face bodily pain and disease and when it does come, they may go through it with a high level of equanimity.
To conclude, I think that for most, if not all, self-realized persons of our times, bodily pain and weakening of body due to disease and old age, is inevitable. But self-realized persons may handle it with high level of equanimity without any fear of death. They may also not be having any fear of (other) bodily pain and disease. I should also say here that such ability does not seem to be limited to self-realized persons and there may be many staunch devotees of God, and even atheists, who have this ability.
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Given below are my comments (slightly edited) from my associated FB post: https://www.facebook.com/ravi.s.iyer.7/posts/pfbid031HmTfmTh5y6cTW68AuPzNf15yPXYmJ94YJCx1t4PERNYNVvNxKMSXKeYZaybCwK4l . To see comments of others (whole comment exchage), please visit the post.
In response to a comment, I wrote:
Interesting view! In this context, are you suggesting that the realized can choose to ignore their bodily pain and suffering (and focus the mind elsewhere like on the Self/God)? I have to say that's what I thought would be the case with Realized persons. But after studying accounts of contemporary and near-contemporary mystics and Realized persons (excluding Sai avatars, of course, as they are very different and much higher than Realized persons), I got the strong impression that only a very few such persons seem to have that ability. But then maybe I am plain wrong. I would love to read accounts of Realized people of our times who say that they can choose to ignore their bodily pain and suffering by focusing their mind elsewhere.
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In response to a comment, I wrote:
Regarding the choice of words of 'focus the mind elsewhere' - it could be expressed in some other way.
BTW is it experience for you that you 'control and decide which part of the room to illumine'? Or is it what you think the Realized may have the ability to do? Or have you come across an account by a Realized person that he/she has that ability and so can 'choose' to not experience the pain and suffering their body (at body senses level) may be going through?
My interest is in written or spoken accounts where contemporary (claimed) self-realized masters write or speak about having ability to not experience pain and suffering at body level. I have found only one or two such accounts.
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I think a better expression of the last sentence of one of my previous comments here would be (instead of saying 'by focussing their mind elsewhere'): I would love to read accounts of Realized people of our times who say that they can choose to ignore their bodily pain and suffering, say by being deeply immersed in their awareness.
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In response to a comment, I wrote:
Thanks --name-snipped-- for your comment. I think I have a better understanding of your views now. This part of your response, "--snip--", was very helpful for me to understand your view.
You have also provided good input on what you view as a Realized person when you say, '--snip--'.
"--snip--" is also a clear statement about your view on this topic. Thanks for providing these clear statements about your views.
I would like to comment on the above two points. IMHO, only very highly evolved beings will be at a spiritually evolved level where they wouldn't know (about feeling their body-mind bondage and associated suffering). In my study of some 20th century and early 21st century accounts of spiritual masters who are said to have been self-realized by many, I came across only one person (Sadhguru Vasudev) who clearly made a claim of not feeling physical pain (due to his spiritual level/ability) in one case (when his injured hand or leg was being stitched without anesthesia) where normal people would have felt a lot of physical pain.
Ramana Maharshi is a famous figure of the 20th century who is viewed today by many as a self-realized master. As I was studying this matter, I came across an account of Ramana going through cancer in his last days. In this account, from what I recall now, it was written that while Ramana would not groan in pain while giving darshan, in private he did groan with pain at times. He also commented that it is the body that is having pain and it is the body that is responding to it by moaning (but that he is not the body). While one could interpret this as Ramana not feeling the mind-body bondage even in such a situation as he was not being associated with mind-body, from my limited spiritual level perspective, I think one could say that Ramana was going through the cancer with high level of equanimity but still he was undergoing some pain and suffering (and so groaning with pain at times).
Regarding the point about (realized people not declaring their self-realization): In my limited understanding view, some self-realized persons mention that they are self-realized and share accounts of their self-realization experiences and some don't. It is the former self-realized persons who get known to spiritual aspirants and some of these self-realized persons become spiritual masters providing guidance to spiritual aspirants. I think Ramana Maharshi is a case of this former group of self-realized persons as he has shared his self-realization experiences. From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry_(Ramana_Maharshi) : "Ramana's teachings on Self-enquiry originated in his own awakening at age 16, when he became firmly aware of death. It made him aware of the Self. Ramana summarised his insight into "aham sphurana" (Self-awareness)[note 2] to a visitor in 1945"...
[Note that I am excluding Sai Avatars in these comments as they are descent of God in human form with supernatural powers, and so are different from other spiritual masters who have evolved in their lifetimes.]
Thanks again for your views. We seem to differ in our views to some extent but that's perfectly fine. We are entitled to have our differing views.
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